Friend and tithing

[Jacob]

Interesting thoughts. So then what does "interest" mean in verse 4?

I don't know. It could mean something like income, or it could mean something more like increase in wealth. The latter definition would exclude money earned but spent on basic needs like food, clothing and shelter--emphasis placed on basic. I haven't really looked at it closely enough, but based on all 5 verses read together, I'd lean towards "interest" meaning something like increase in overall wealth. We've heard the word "increase" used as well. In other words, we are back to what we might describe as "surplus."
But the common member can't be trusted to determine his own surplus, otherwise he will deem his $350,000 house a basic housing need, right?</sarcasm>
If we were serious about it, we could set a level for basic needs. Something like the irs standard deduction, and no tithe would be required on the first 12k in income. But that's all too much like the world. The current approach would be better--let the individual decide after giving him the scripture. But that is only the approach in theory and not in practice.

In practice, the church teaches that tithes must be paid on IRS gross income. Bishops, SS teachers, EQ presidents, and Ask Gramps teach this and GAs do too. I was in a gospel doctrine class where Elder Eyring visited (it was his granddaughter's ward) and he took over the class and opened it up for Q&A. We were all obviously excited for the opportunity. He spoke of tithing and said something like this: "the law is 10% of your increase and we don't get into the gross v net debate. By the way, it's gross." (I didn't think much of it at the time). I think that's "the church's" unofficial, official position (or would it be the official, unofficial position?). Members are to pay 10% of all their gross income, but they are asked only to declare themselves a full tithe payer. I'm not saying that's right or wrong. That's just the way I see it.

[Moliere]

I have a hard time with this idea. I think that you are totally justified in doing this (and I would probably do the same), but where I have an issue is that then the Church has no idea what it takes to run a ward.

It seems that there is a huge push to keep the youth involved in the Church and more and more is expected of the youth leaders, but budgets are tightened all the time. I think that this gives gives faulty feedback to the Church that members are able to have great activities and retain the youth and do it all on a dime, when in reality leaders are taking it in the shorts to fund many of the things that are done.

I agree with everyone else on the Utestar original question, that it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks as long as his friend feels he is a full tithe payer.

Ward budgets! if we got rid of scouting we could easily eliminate $1,000 per ward of needless expenses, which is quite a bit in relation to a typical ward budget.

The best advice I've been given on YM programs is to purchase the gear yourself. Then when your ward gets split or you move it goes with you. Before my ward was created we had a trailer full of camping gear along with canoes and the like. When the ward was split the old ward took everything without even asking how it should be divided up. I guess we could still borrow most of it if they weren't using it, but some members weren't very happy that the gear they and their sons had paid for through fund raisers was not even partially staying in their ward.

In practice, the church teaches that tithes must be paid on IRS gross income. Bishops, SS teachers, EQ presidents, and Ask Gramps teach this and GAs do too. I was in a gospel doctrine class where Elder Eyring visited (it was his granddaughter's ward) and he took over the class and opened it up for Q&A. We were all obviously excited for the opportunity. He spoke of tithing and said something like this: "the law is 10% of your increase and we don't get into the gross v net debate. By the way, it's gross." (I didn't think much of it at the time). I think that's "the church's" unofficial, official position (or would it be the official, unofficial position?). Members are to pay 10% of all their gross income, but they are asked only to declare themselves a full tithe payer. I'm not saying that's right or wrong. That's just the way I see it.

Define gross income. If its the IRS definition then you a basically putting the interpretation of a commandment into the hands of Congress. You also scope out things like employer paid health insurance, employer paid FICA taxes, use of company cars, scholarships, etc.

This is why I like the church's approach. They don't define it as gross income, except in these little private settings that a discussed on Internet message boards.

[Jacob]

Define gross income. If its the IRS definition then you a basically putting the interpretation of a commandment into the hands of Congress. You also scope out things like employer paid health insurance, employer paid FICA taxes, use of company cars, scholarships, etc.

This is why I like the church's approach. They don't define it as gross income, except in these little private settings that a discussed on Internet message boards.

That's mostly right. The church has done the same thing with MPAA ratings.

[creekster]

Jacob. Doesn't your argument become sort of an intellectual double dip? You are willing to forgo donation of your surplus property to the church yet demand strict adherence to a speculative interpretation of the author's intent for the term increase. Why does it matter where our concept of income came from if this the prophetic determination?

[Sullyute]

He spoke of tithing and said something like this: "the law is 10% of your increase and we don't get into the gross v net debate. By the way, it's gross." (I didn't think much of it at the time). I think that's "the church's" unofficial, official position (or would it be the official, unofficial position?).

I love how so much of the Church doctrine/practice is officially unofficial?

- We believe the bible to be the word of God as long as it is translated corrected...and is the Kings James Version.

- "Those who bless and pass the sacrament should dress modestly and be well groomed and clean. Clothing or jewelry should not call attention to itself or distract members during the sacrament. Ties and white shirts are recommended because they add to the dignity of the ordinance. However, they should not be required as a mandatory prerequisite for a priesthood holder to participate." - White shirt and tie is the uniform of the priesthood.

ad infinitum...

[Jacob]

Jacob. Doesn't your argument become sort of an intellectual double dip? You are willing to forgo donation of your surplus property to the church yet demand strict adherence to a speculative interpretation of the author's intent for the term increase. Why does it matter where our concept of income came from if this the prophetic determination?

No. Not at all. I haven't demanded anybody's adherence to anything. Quite the contrary. I'm not a strict adherence kind of guy. I tried to make that point clear in my posts here. I haven't advocated what I see as the church's position. I've merely described it as I've experienced it. Notice I put "the church" in quotes everytime I referred to its policy/standard.

[pellegrino]

Interesting thoughts.. So then what does "interest" mean in verse 4?

In the 1828 websters dictionary, interest (as a noun) is defined as follows:

IN'TEREST, n. Concern; advantage; good; as private interest; public interest.

Divisions hinder the common interest and public good.

1. Influence over others. They had now lost their interest at court.

He knew his interest sufficient to procure the office.

2. Share; portion; part; participation in value. He has parted with his interest in the stocks. He has an interest in a manufactory of cotton goods.

3. Regard to private profit.

'Tis interest calls off all her sneaking train.

4. Premium paid for the use of money; the profit per cent derived from money lent, or property used by another person, or from debts remaining unpaid. Commercial states have a legal rate of interest. Debts on book bear an interest after the expiration of the credit. Courts allow interest in many cases where it is not stipulated. A higher rate of interest than that which the law allows, is called usury.

Simple interest is that which arises from the principal sum only.

Compound interest is that which arises from the principal with the interest added; interest on interest.

5. Any surplus advantage.

With all speed,

you shall have your desire with interest.

I bolded the definitions I felt most relevant to the discussion.

I think it's safe to say that interest, in the context under which DC 119 was given, was considered to be a surplus advantage.

The 1913 Websters dictionary gives us this indication too.

5. Participation in advantage, profit, and responsibility; share; portion; part; as, an interest in a brewery; he has parted with his interest in the stocks.
6. Advantage, personal or general; good, regarded as a selfish benefit; profit; benefit.
8. Any excess of advantage over and above an exact equivalent for what is given or rendered.

Of great interest (pun intended) is the definition of advantage, which appears as a prominent word in the definition of interest. I cite the most pertinent definitions.

1. Any state, condition, or circumstance, favorable to success, prosperity, interest, or reputation.

The enemy had the advantage of elevated ground.

2. Benefit; gain; profit.

7. Interest; increase; overplus.

[RobinFinderson]

Seems like a decent moment to bear my testimony about the miracle of not paying tithing -- you have 10% more money to spend on things like your kids and their education.

[pellegrino]

I love how so much of the Church doctrine/practice is officially unofficial?

- We believe the bible to be the word of God as long as it is translated corrected...and is the Kings James Version.

- "Those who bless and pass the sacrament should dress modestly and be well groomed and clean. Clothing or jewelry should not call attention to itself or distract members during the sacrament. Ties and white shirts are recommended because they add to the dignity of the ordinance. However, they should not be required as a mandatory prerequisite for a priesthood holder to participate." - White shirt and tie is the uniform of the priesthood.

ad infinitum...

the unspoken order of things can be quite powerful.

[Jacob]

Seems like a decent moment to bear my testimony about the miracle of not paying tithing -- you have 10% more money to spend on things like your kids and their education.

Come on now. Kids and their education? Please. More like bigger TVs and nicer cars. I mean, It costs like $600/month just to drive a middle class car these days!

[falafel]

Come on now. Kids and their education? Please. More like bigger TVs and nicer cars. I mean, It costs like $600/month just to drive a middle class car these days!

No kidding, and we already know Finderson is in the market for the nicest, biggest TV he can buy.

[Moliere]

the unspoken order of things can be quite powerful.

This is why I only use my left hand to respond to SU's posts.

[Moliere]

That's mostly right. The church has done the same thing with MPAA ratings.

Then I suggest everyone put their money into something that produces capital gains since those are not technically IRS ordinary income. I also wonder how European saints would take this advice given the high taxes rates over there.

[UtahDan]

He spoke of tithing and said something like this: "the law is 10% of your increase and we don't get into the gross v net debate. By the way, it's gross."

I'm not trying to be a dick, but I'm going to say this anyway. I think that the concept of "one thing is taught in public, but there is a truer, more secret thing that we can tell some people privately" is a really, really strange concept. Really strange. Why can't a mouthpiece of God just straightforwardly declare what is expected on an important issue like tithing? Because it might offend some people? The church is not bashful about giving offense on other issues, so I don't think that is it.

[lambdacoug]

Seems like a decent moment to bear my testimony about the miracle of not paying tithing -- you have 10% more money to spend on things like your kids and their education.

The last two years I was in the church, I did not pay tithing. If I paid tithing, my wife would have had to work to make up the difference. She got tired of not being at home for the kids. So she quit working to be home for them (well, that and cheat with anything with two legs and a penis). We met with the bishop and told him this and he didn't take it well. We walked into tithing settlement that year and proudly proclaimed I considered us full tithe payers. He chafed, but signed it anyway.