Mormonism as a stalled progressivism

[The Rambam]

Who would you call if you were in charge, and you didn't have correlation as the goal? Let's just assume for discussion sake you had a crazy goal like "bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of men" through a threefold mission of proclaiming the gospel, perfecting the saints, and redeeming the dead.

The threefold mission is a nice soundbite. And now it is four--including helping those in need.

But the main focus of the Church is really to redeem the dead ala DC 2 and DC 13 and DC 128. Sons of Levi preparing to offer an offering to the Lord in righteousness that the whole Earth will not be wasted at his coming.

We only bring in converts as a way to keep the members excited and feeling like they are attractive and because some very slowly mixing cultural influences is a good thing. But we aren't really interested in converting the world--just look at how we are refusing to go into China (yes we have been invited in by the government) and refusing to expand in India (not even a expat branch in Mumbai?!?).

Perfecting the Saints is really all about making sure the Saints adhere to the policies of the Priests, qualifying for Temple recommends so they can do the work of redeeming the dead. Compare the number of talks on strict adherence to chastity and wofw and modesty and other laws of happiness/policies of the Priests vs. the number of talks on having a broken heart and contrite spirit in acceptance of the Atonement. The average active member has a far better understanding of the policies regarding white shirts, short haircuts, no beards, one earring per ear, etc than they do regarding the atonement.

Our humanitarian aid is a joke when one realizes what we actually do compared to our capacity. This is because our goal isn't to save the starving and freezing. We do just enough to get some positive PR to make the members feel warm and fuzzy. This makes sense because we must save and marshal our resources to make sure nothing ever interferes with our doing Temple work.

Because the goal is the efficient and voluminous accomplishment of Temple work, conformity and correlation is demanded. It is difficult to get an army working efficiently when they sing different hymns. So we smash down a uniformity and promote those who are comfortable inside the mold, who will encourage all to put their shoulder to the wheel and push and shut the hell up about the course of the wagon.

Ha...exactly.
Rambam's post is articulate, except that it misses the point of dave's post (which was nicely done, I think). Yes, Rambam, maybe you would call these types to run the church, but dave is asking if this is the reason we have a retention problem--we tempt people with the idea of newness, only to have them run into the wall of the typical bureaucratic large organization? Yes, this seems to be inevitable as any organization grows from its humble yet exciting beginnings, but shouldn't we expect God's church, with the missions that it claims, to be the exception to the standard organization life cycle? Maybe, maybe not, I don't know, but it's an interesting point to discuss.

Our retention problem is because most people don't actually like being smooshed down into a tight box. The Church just doesn't focus on teaching you to have a broken heart and a contrite spirit. The most effective way to do that might be itinerant preachers traveling without purse or script. It certainly isn't a multi-billion dollar bureaucracy.

People join the church because they are touched by the Holy Ghost and moved towards sanctification. Then they find out they have joined a very tight army of priests focused on doing work for the dead. We ain't selling what we really are.

[taekwondave]

We ain't selling what we really are.

You just summed up my thoughts with that statement.

[tooblue]

The threefold mission is a nice soundbite. And now it is four--including helping those in need.

But the main focus of the Church is really to redeem the dead ala DC 2 and DC 13 and DC 128. Sons of Levi preparing to offer an offering to the Lord in righteousness that the whole Earth will not be wasted at his coming.

We only bring in converts as a way to keep the members excited and feeling like they are attractive and because some very slowly mixing cultural influences is a good thing. But we aren't really interested in converting the world--just look at how we are refusing to go into China (yes we have been invited in by the government) and refusing to expand in India (not even a expat branch in Mumbai?!?).

Perfecting the Saints is really all about making sure the Saints adhere to the policies of the Priests, qualifying for Temple recommends so they can do the work of redeeming the dead. Compare the number of talks on strict adherence to chastity and wofw and modesty and other laws of happiness/policies of the Priests vs. the number of talks on having a broken heart and contrite spirit in acceptance of the Atonement. The average active member has a far better understanding of the policies regarding white shirts, short haircuts, no beards, one earring per ear, etc than they do regarding the atonement.

Our humanitarian aid is a joke when one realizes what we actually do compared to our capacity. This is because our goal isn't to save the starving and freezing. We do just enough to get some positive PR to make the members feel warm and fuzzy. This makes sense because we must save and marshal our resources to make sure nothing ever interferes with our doing Temple work.

Because the goal is the efficient and voluminous accomplishment of Temple work, conformity and correlation is demanded. It is difficult to get an army working efficiently when they sing different hymns. So we smash down a uniformity and promote those who are comfortable inside the mold, who will encourage all to put their shoulder to the wheel and push and shut the hell up about the course of the wagon.



Our retention problem is because most people don't actually like being smooshed down into a tight box. The Church just doesn't focus on teaching you to have a broken heart and a contrite spirit. The most effective way to do that might be itinerant preachers traveling without purse or script. It certainly isn't a multi-billion dollar bureaucracy.

People join the church because they are touched by the Holy Ghost and moved towards sanctification. Then they find out they have joined a very tight army of priests focused on doing work for the dead. We ain't selling what we really are.

It's this type of nonsense that makes you look like a fool and reveals that you have no idea what you are talking about. Stupidity is a choice Rambam, especially in this day and age. Educate yourself and then speak up.

[taekwondave]

Just being honest ... and in direct response to his posts in this thread.

Hey, while we've got you here, why don't you let let us know if there is a thread about Dave and his posts in the secret forum? I'll bet there is even a thread there about why so many posters no longer participate here in the religion forum also.

You've got a real hang up with this secret forum thing. I get that there is something else that posters on this site have got going on the side that you see as an elitist secret combination of buddies who respect each others minds, and that I haven't been invited into that group, but I don't care, and I don't get why you do so much. I get plenty from CUF as it stands. You, however, can't stop bringing it up. I don't know why that is, but again, I don't care. You're snarky. I think you're honest about what you think, but your honesty always seems to lack charity for some reason. I don't know who hurt you, but how long are you going to let it sour your personality towards the rest of us? You are just so PERSONAL all the time. Man. Good luck with that.

[taekwondave]

It's this type of nonsense that makes you look like a fool and reveals that you have no idea what you are talking about. Stupidity is a choice Rambam, especially in this day and age. Educate yourself and then speak up.

Please, God, do NOT respond to this.

[tooblue]

Please, God, do NOT respond to this.

Don't worry Dave, Rambam and I go way back. We've had this exact discussion before on other venues. He looked even more like a fool then.

[taekwondave]

Don't worry Dave, Rambam and I go way back. We've had this exact discussion before on other venues. He looked even more like a fool then.

I'm sure you thought he did. Please leave this thread alone.

[tooblue]

You've got a real hang up with this secret forum thing. I get that there is something else that posters on this site have got going on the side that you see as an elitist secret combination of buddies who respect each others minds, and that I haven't been invited into that group, but I don't care, and I don't get why you do so much. I get plenty from CUF as it stands. You, however, can't stop bringing it up. I don't know why that is, but again, I don't care. You're snarky. I think you're honest about what you think, but your honesty always seems to lack charity for some reason. I don't know who hurt you, but how long are you going to let it sour your personality towards the rest of us? You are just so PERSONAL all the time. Man. Good luck with that.

I'm only pointing out the hypocrisy of camleish's post because I figure he is a member of the secret forum. I recused myself from it. And you do and should care. It's OK.

And as for charity, where is it found in your posts? You offer up some highly offensive ideas, knowing full well there are many devout LDS here. When you do, is it excused because it is designed to enlighten? You should stop and think about that for a minute. Because, honestly you come across as a button pusher whose only real intent is to get a rise out of people. Also, in the immortal words of the principle of this site, it's not personal Dave, it's passion!

[tooblue]

I'm sure you thought he did. Please leave this thread alone.

No, he did look like a fool. I'm not alone in my assessment.

[EuropeanFootballMale]

I'm only pointing out the hypocrisy of camleish's post because I figure he is a member of the secret forum. I recused myself from it. And you do and should care. It's OK.

And as for charity, where is it found in your posts? You offer up some highly offensive ideas, knowing full well there are many devout LDS here. When you do, is it excused because it is designed to enlighten? You should stop and think about that for a minute. Because, honestly you come across as a button pusher whose only real intent is to get a rise out of people. Also, in the immortal words of the principle of this site, it's not personal Dave, it's passion!

Does the secret forum shed any further light on this Craig James thing? If so, I'd really like in on that.

[tooblue]

Does the secret forum shed any further light on this Craig James thing? If so, I'd really like in on that.

It just might. They have some legit insiders in there.

[taekwondave]

And as for charity, where is it found in your posts? You offer up some highly offensive ideas, knowing full well there are many devout LDS here. When you do, is it excused because it is designed to enlighten? You should stop and think about that for a minute. Because, honestly you come across as a button pusher whose only real intent is to get a rise out of people. Also, in the immortal words of the principle of this site, it's not personal Dave, it's passion!

Ugh. There are many not-devoutly LDS here as well, friend. An IDEA should not be offensive to you, that is your weakness. I don't cross a line when I raise questions about religious notions in the religion forum, you DO cross a line when you enter the discussion and take personal shots at other posters. You may think, "But Dave, my religion is very personal to me." Religion is personal to everybody, but we don't call names, and you don't seem to get that. You run in here, drudging up the past, ignoring the topic at hand, opting instead to attack the intelligence or motives of those discussing the issue, and then you try to make those two actions out to be on equal footing--they aren't, pal.

I'm sorry you ditched your secret forum friends, but you really need to shut up about it. It has absolutely nothing to do with this thread.

[tooblue]

Ugh. There are many not-devoutly LDS here as well, friend. An IDEA should not be offensive to you, that is your weakness. I don't cross a line when I raise questions about religious notions in the religion forum, you DO cross a line when you enter the discussion and take personal shots at other posters. You may think, "But Dave, my religion is very personal to me." Religion is personal to everybody, but we don't call names, and you don't seem to get that. You run in here, drudging up the past, ignoring the topic at hand, opting instead to attack the intelligence or motives of those discussing the issue, and then you try to make those two actions out to be on equal footing--they aren't, pal.

I'm sorry you ditched your secret forum friends, but you really need to shut up about it. It has absolutely nothing to do with this thread.

Really (in response to the bolded part)? Where have you been ... or, how long have you been here? lol Whatever, dave.

:we need a head in the hands smiley:

You don't think your ideas are an attack, even subtly, on the intelligence of the devout, and that's why they cross a line ... a line that it's OK to cross for the so-called progressives because it's just an idea? Think about it a little harder before you respond.

In the interest of full disclosure, I brought up the secret forum to push your buttons. It worked.

[creekster]

All I'm saying in a nutshell is, it's easy to stand and cast stones of criticism at an instituion, but it's more rewarding to step in and help remodel it.

I think this is an excellent observation, especially in light of some of the comments in this thread that tend to paint with such incredibly broad brushstrokes.

I would also add that IMO not only can such efforts be rewarding, they are ultimately much more useful, whether or not they reach their intended goal.

[taekwondave]

You don't think your ideas are an attack, even subtly, on the intelligence of the devout, and that's why they cross a line ... a line that it's OK to cross for the so-called progressives because it's just an idea?

I think this was the only respectful part of your post. When you can make your entire post this respectful, I'll be happy to address your questions.

Nah. I've never seen one thing you've written that shows an honest desire to discuss/argue. You don't argue points, you argue intentions and character, which in my opinion, should be outside the realm of discussion. You'll just be one of only two people I have put on my ignore list, and that will just have to do. Good luck to ya.