Mormonism as a stalled progressivism

[The Rambam]

All I'm saying in a nutshell is, it's easy to stand and cast stones of criticism at an instituion, but it's more rewarding to step in and help remodel it.

I think this is a very naive view. I don't think that you actually believe for a second that that the Apostle want you or me or anyone "stepping in" to "remodel" the Church. Good luck with that.

You would have a better chance at remodeling the United States Federal Government. Literally.

[tooblue]

I think this is an excellent observation, especially in light of some of the comments in this thread that tend to paint with such incredibly broad brushstrokes.

I would also add that IMO not only can such efforts be rewarding, they are ultimately much more useful, whether or not they reach their intended goal.

Very good thoughts. And I would add that such efforts are daunting. They exact a mental and physical toll new members struggle to fathom. IMO it is the single biggest cause of people leaving the church. If we want to retain more members we would do well to change the culture, especially as it relates to commitment to activities at all cost. But, that's asking an awfully lot because it is such a big part of North American social, ideological conditioning.

[creekster]

I think this is a very naive view. I don't think that you actually believe for a second that that the Apostle want you or me or anyone "stepping in" to "remodel" the Church. Good luck with that.

You would have a better chance at remodeling the United States Federal Government. Literally.

And the utility of your approach is what exactly?

To be honest (and I realize I am not helping) I think your posts in this thread tend to detract from TKD's original observation which is an interesting question, in my mind, and putting aside some of the normative evaluations with which I disagree.

[tooblue]

I think this is a very naive view. I don't think that you actually believe for a second that that the Apostle want you or me or anyone "stepping in" to "remodel" the Church. Good luck with that.

You would have a better chance at remodeling the United States Federal Government. Literally.

This is an unduly nihilistic view. It's as if you are saying the only way things will change is if they do it my way and since they are unwilling why bother. Is that what you mean to say?

[The Rambam]

It's this type of nonsense that makes you look like a fool and reveals that you have no idea what you are talking about. Stupidity is a choice Rambam, especially in this day and age. Educate yourself and then speak up.

Sigh. We are primarily Priests preparing a book, not humanitarians serving our brothers and sisters. The point of the Restoration was not to organize us under the Priesthood to go forth and feed the hungry and clothe the naked; the point was to build Temples and do work for the dead. Our everyday lives in the Church does not include a significant percentage of our time serving the truly needy (and no, raking the old person in the ward's leaves or being the personal finance merit badge counselor isn't humanitarian aid).

This is just so basic and so obvious from the facts, it literally boggles my mind to hear people try to claim the Church has a significant humanitarian outreach program. It just doesn't--because that isn't its purpose.

.3% of income paid towards humanitarian aid isn't anything to brag about.

http://lds.org/church/statistics?lang=eng

1.35 Billion given since 1985. And approximately 2/3s of that is in-kind giving (members making quilts or care packages).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finance...ter-day_Saints

TIME magazine estimated in 1996 that the church's assets exceeded $30 billion.[1] This figure represents only one side of the balance sheet and does not include current liabilities for maintenance, although the LDS church incurs virtually no long-term liabilities.[11] After the Time article was published, the LDS church responded that the financial figures in the article were "grossly exaggerated."[22] Three years later, annual revenues were estimated to be $5 billion, with total assets at $25 to $30 billion.[23] Whatever the actual figure, about two-thirds of it is made up of non-income-producing facilities and the land they sit on, including thousands of meetinghouses and over 130 temples the LDS church operates worldwide, as well as educational institutions (mainly Brigham Young University).[citation needed] The remaining assets include direct investments in for-profit businesses managed through Deseret Management Corporation. Although the LDS church is a tax-exempt organization, its for-profit entities generate "unrelated business income" that is subject to federal, state, and local income and other taxes.
The church's holdings include:
AgReserves Inc. - the largest producer of nuts in America (circa. 1997)[1]
Hawaii Reserves, Inc. - Miscellaneous church holdings in Hawaii. Along with the Polynesian Cultural Center (the leading paid visitor attraction in Hawaii[24]) and Brigham Young University-Hawaii, Hawaii Reserves generated revenue of $260 million for the Hawaii economy in 2005.[25]
Farmland Reserve Inc. - 228,000 acres (923 km²) in Nebraska,[26]; 51,600 acres in Osage County, Oklahoma[27]; and over 312,000 acres (1,260 km²) in Florida (dba Deseret Cattle and Citrus).[28]
Bonneville International Corporation - the 14th largest radio chain in the U.S.[1]
Deseret Morning News - a daily Utah newspaper, second-largest in the state of Utah.[29]
Beneficial Financial Group - An insurance and financial services company with assets of $3.1 billion.[30]

[SloanHater]

Sigh. ...

I didn't know SeattleUte had a sister.

As for this thread, I thought TKDave was sincere, judging by his responses and lack there of, I was wrong.

[The Rambam]

This is an unduly nihilistic view. It's as if you are saying the only way things will change is if they do it my way and since they are unwilling why bother. Is that what you mean to say?

Elder Oaks paraphrased Joseph Smith in a JRCLS Fireside in DC in 2000 or 2001 when I was at Duke (we drove up for the event).

He was asked by someone in the Q&A after his talk a question something like this: Lots of us are in positions of influence in government or military or industry. We can help the Church in lots of ways such as PR or opening China or greasing the wheels with the US government. What can we do to help you?

Elder Oaks' reply was immediate, clear, and emphatic: The Lord will do his own work. Which of you brought down the iron curtain? Which of you got our missionaries into Russia? The Lord will do his own work. When He wants us in China, he will provide the way without your help. You can't do it and shouldn't try. The Lord will do his own work (he repeated this a number of times).

I later heard a quote from Joseph Smith where he repeated that same phrase a number of times in a speech.

They don't want our help in pushing the work forward. They really don't.

They also don't want us "steadying the ark", trying to improve the way the church operates.

Two examples: The cut-off for girls going to girls camp is age 14. A very semi-active girl in my NYC branch wanted to go to girls camp. The school cutoff in NYC is earlier than it is in Utah so you have younger girls in a grade then is typical in Utah. All her friends were going to girls camp, but she didn't turn 14 for another month. I tried to convince the Branch President that they should let her go with the other girls in her grade. He was sympathetic and talked to the District Pres. DP kicked it to the Stake YW Pres. I called the SYWP and pleaded to no avail. The SYWP said no way, no how. The semi-active girl probably only attended church two or three times after that. She is not a Mormon today. But the rule is intact. My pushing was not appreciated by the District Pres or the SYWP. I was polite and accepted their decision, with tears, knowing the impact the decision would have.

The Mormon Church holds billions of dollars of securities, widely disbursed among many many public companies. Lots of these companies have been sued in securities class actions (where a shareholder claims the company didn't divulge market-moving information in a timely enough fashion). These suits are hated by the top-level executives who are accused of the wrong-doing. They are controversial because the company has to pay money to a subset of shareholders--in effect it is a preferred dividend. Some people think these suits just take money from innocent shareholders and pays it to other innocent shareholders. The point is that, like them or hate them, these suits have generated hundreds of billions of dollars of payouts over the years. But the LDS Church hasn't received a dime of these payouts. Because we haven't opted into the class, putting our hand out for the check. We throw that money down the drain because our leaders identify with the top-level execs (many were top-level execs) and they just don't like securities class actions. I know they understand this problem because I have discussed it with senior members of their legal team and they won't be a part of it. I am certain they have walked away from far more than the 1.3 billion they have given in charitable aid over the last 25 years.

You want me to work within to remodel this stuff? How, do you propose, I get the Church to remodel their policy on the strict age cutoff for girl's camp and their throwing away free money in securities class actions? How pray-tell?

[tooblue]

Sigh. We are primarily Priests preparing a book, not humanitarians serving our brothers and sisters. The point of the Restoration was not to organize us under the Priesthood to go forth and feed the hungry and clothe the naked; the point was to build Temples and do work for the dead. Our everyday lives in the Church does not include a significant percentage of our time serving the truly needy (and no, raking the old person in the ward's leaves or being the personal finance merit badge counselor isn't humanitarian aid).

This is just so basic and so obvious from the facts, it literally boggles my mind to hear people try to claim the Church has a significant humanitarian outreach program. It just doesn't--because that isn't its purpose.

.3% of income paid towards humanitarian aid isn't anything to brag about.

http://lds.org/church/statistics?lang=eng

1.35 Billion given since 1985. And approximately 2/3s of that is in-kind giving (members making quilts or care packages).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finance...ter-day_Saints

TIME magazine estimated in 1996 that the church's assets exceeded $30 billion.[1] This figure represents only one side of the balance sheet and does not include current liabilities for maintenance, although the LDS church incurs virtually no long-term liabilities.[11] After the Time article was published, the LDS church responded that the financial figures in the article were "grossly exaggerated."[22] Three years later, annual revenues were estimated to be $5 billion, with total assets at $25 to $30 billion.[23] Whatever the actual figure, about two-thirds of it is made up of non-income-producing facilities and the land they sit on, including thousands of meetinghouses and over 130 temples the LDS church operates worldwide, as well as educational institutions (mainly Brigham Young University).[citation needed] The remaining assets include direct investments in for-profit businesses managed through Deseret Management Corporation. Although the LDS church is a tax-exempt organization, its for-profit entities generate "unrelated business income" that is subject to federal, state, and local income and other taxes.
The church's holdings include:
AgReserves Inc. - the largest producer of nuts in America (circa. 1997)[1]
Hawaii Reserves, Inc. - Miscellaneous church holdings in Hawaii. Along with the Polynesian Cultural Center (the leading paid visitor attraction in Hawaii[24]) and Brigham Young University-Hawaii, Hawaii Reserves generated revenue of $260 million for the Hawaii economy in 2005.[25]
Farmland Reserve Inc. - 228,000 acres (923 km²) in Nebraska,[26]; 51,600 acres in Osage County, Oklahoma[27]; and over 312,000 acres (1,260 km²) in Florida (dba Deseret Cattle and Citrus).[28]
Bonneville International Corporation - the 14th largest radio chain in the U.S.[1]
Deseret Morning News - a daily Utah newspaper, second-largest in the state of Utah.[29]
Beneficial Financial Group - An insurance and financial services company with assets of $3.1 billion.[30]

We have been over this before elsewhere. I don't want to link to those threads for obvious reasons as you make a fresh start here. Suffice it to say, your numbers are offered out of context as they do not address the issue of infrastructure.

IMO, you have a wayward agenda that blinds you to the realities presidents of the priests quorum in LDS church face weekly ... and the many millions if not billions they dispense because that infrastructure exists, and only because it exists. It's clear you have a very limited understanding of how the church works on a local, regional level. it's not as basic and obvious as you would like it portrayed unless your aim is to engage in sophistry.

This strange, naive libertarianism in regards to LDS humanitarian aid is puzzling and distressing. If you want to know more and want direct control over funds in your area, heed creeks and sloan's advice and get more directly involved.

[woot]

While I think it's very clear that the church leadership neither welcomes nor values any input from the lay membership, I think individuals do have a modicum of influence, in that they can show other members that one doesn't have to be a "thinking has been done" type in order to be a faithful and orthoprax mormon. As the numbers of these types increase, I imagine that the leadership will slowly catch on.

[The Rambam]

We have been over this before elsewhere. I don't want to link to those threads for obvious reasons as you make a fresh start here. Suffice it to say, your numbers are offered out of context as they do not address the issue of infrastructure.

IMO, you have a wayward agenda that blinds you to the realities presidents of the priests quorum in LDS church face weekly ... and the many millions if not billions they dispense because that infrastructure exists, and only because it exists. It's clear you have a very limited understanding of how the church works on a local, regional level. it's not as basic and obvious as you would like it portrayed unless your aim is to engage in sophistry.

This strange, naive libertarianism in regards to LDS humanitarian aid is puzzling and distressing. If you want to know more and want direct control over funds in your area, heed creeks and sloan's advice and get more directly involved.

I have spent most of my adult life in PEC meetings in various callings there. Over 15 years in various PEC callings.

We do a great job of taking care of each other in our wards and branches. This is a fact and I recognize and celebrate it. It is one of my favorite things about the Church.

It is also a fact that the Church does not make a serious effort to help the truly poor and destitute. We run amazing educational institutions--but not one homeless shelter. We run some of the finest eateries in SLC--but not one soup kitchen. We build amazing Temples with imported African hard-wood banisters costing over $1million dollars (Draper Temple)--but not one home for the elderly or mentally infirm.

I just don't know how anyone can seriously argue with this. I really don't.

[tooblue]

Elder Oaks paraphrased Joseph Smith in a JRCLS Fireside in DC in 2000 or 2001 when I was at Duke (we drove up for the event).

He was asked by someone in the Q&A after his talk a question something like this: Lots of us are in positions of influence in government or military or industry. We can help the Church in lots of ways such as PR or opening China or greasing the wheels with the US government. What can we do to help you?

Elder Oaks' reply was immediate, clear, and emphatic: The Lord will do his own work. Which of you brought down the iron curtain? Which of you got our missionaries into Russia? The Lord will do his own work. When He wants us in China, he will provide the way without your help. You can't do it and shouldn't try. The Lord will do his own work (he repeated this a number of times).

I later heard a quote from Joseph Smith where he repeated that same phrase a number of times in a speech.

They don't want our help in pushing the work forward. They really don't.

They also don't want us "steadying the ark", trying to improve the way the church operates.

Two examples: The cut-off for girls going to girls camp is age 14. A very semi-active girl in my NYC branch wanted to go to girls camp. The school cutoff in NYC is earlier than it is in Utah so you have younger girls in a grade then is typical in Utah. All her friends were going to girls camp, but she didn't turn 14 for another month. I tried to convince the Branch President that they should let her go with the other girls in her grade. He was sympathetic and talked to the District Pres. DP kicked it to the Stake YW Pres. I called the SYWP and pleaded to no avail. The SYWP said no way, no how. The semi-active girl probably only attended church two or three times after that. She is not a Mormon today. But the rule is intact. My pushing was not appreciated by the District Pres or the SYWP. I was polite and accepted their decision, with tears, knowing the impact the decision would have.

The Mormon Church holds billions of dollars of securities, widely disbursed among many many public companies. Lots of these companies have been sued in securities class actions (where a shareholder claims the company didn't divulge market-moving information in a timely enough fashion). These suits are hated by the top-level executives who are accused of the wrong-doing. They are controversial because the company has to pay money to a subset of shareholders--in effect it is a preferred dividend. Some people think these suits just take money from innocent shareholders and pays it to other innocent shareholders. The point is that, like them or hate them, these suits have generated hundreds of billions of dollars of payouts over the years. But the LDS Church hasn't received a dime of these payouts. Because we haven't opted into the class, putting our hand out for the check. We throw that money down the drain because our leaders identify with the top-level execs (many were top-level execs) and they just don't like securities class actions. I know they understand this problem because I have discussed it with senior members of their legal team and they won't be a part of it. I am certain they have walked away from far more than the 1.3 billion they have given in charitable aid over the last 25 years.

You want me to work within to remodel this stuff? How, do you propose, I get the Church to remodel their policy on the strict age cutoff for girl's camp and their throwing away free money in securities class actions? How pray-tell?

I personally know individuals who live in China and attend church there ... who in fact established the church in mainland China. At one time they lived in my part of the world. No, you and others cannot help with what is going on in China. Your attitude is too American and NOT helpful. Oaks was exactly right in what he said IMO.

You're talking about securities? What you really want is to help change the churches business model? From your description, I'm pleased the church doesn't put it's hand out and risk exposing themselves in some other way.

Yes, I want you to get involved. Yes, yes, yes.

[SloanHater]

While I think it's very clear that the church leadership neither welcomes nor values any input from the lay membership, I think individuals do have a modicum of influence, in that they can show other members that one doesn't have to be a "thinking has been done" type in order to be a faithful and orthoprax mormon. As the numbers of these types increase, I imagine that the leadership will slowly catch on.

This is worse than Rambam's drivel.

Have you ever met someone in a high church leadership position? One of the 12 came out last year for stake conference and was more than willing to take questions/feedback before meetings, during meetings, and after meetings.

Just because they don't change church policy based on feedback doesn't mean they don't consider and discuss it.

It's funny how you Americans think the Church should model itself after a population that is no longer the majority.

[woot]

This is worse than Rambam's drivel.

Have you ever met someone in a high church leadership position? One of the 12 came out last year for stake conference and was more than willing to take questions/feedback before meetings, during meetings, and after meetings.

Just because they don't change church policy based on feedback doesn't mean they don't consider and discuss it.

It's funny how you Americans think the Church should model itself after a population that is no longer the majority.

When I talk about church leadership, I'm not talking about stake presidents. I appreciate your continued venom, though. Between you and tooblue, the church has a great companionship of representatives.

[tooblue]

I have spent most of my adult life in PEC meetings in various callings there. Over 15 years in various PEC callings.

We do a great job of taking care of each other in our wards and branches. This is a fact and I recognize and celebrate it. It is one of my favorite things about the Church.

It is also a fact that the Church does not make a serious effort to help the truly poor and destitute. We run amazing educational institutions--but not one homeless shelter. We run some of the finest eateries in SLC--but not one soup kitchen. We build amazing Temples with imported African hard-wood banisters costing over $1million dollars (Draper Temple)--but not one home for the elderly or mentally infirm.

I just don't know how anyone can seriously argue with this. I really don't.

It is not a fact. One day we should sit down over lunch and discuss this issue in greater detail. I am dismayed at your cynicism. Maybe it's not cynicism but you leave me feeling profoundly sad.

[SloanHater]

When I talk about church leadership, I'm not talking about stake presidents. I appreciate your continued venom, though. Between you and tooblue, the church has a great companionship of representatives.

Perhaps you should work on your reading comprehension. There was no mention of stake presidents.