mormonstories.org

[jay santos]

I listened to the Jared Anderson podcast over the last weekend, "An Academic Introduction to the New Testament", and liked it so much that I immediately repeated it. This is an informative and entertaining historical approach to the books of the New Testament.

I rate this one "very highly recommended".

http://mormonstories.org/?p=1476

It was very informative. I didn't like it in the sense that Jared really seems proud of himself that he could know so much about the New Testament yet still call himself a Mormon. I hear some of these guys talk, and I just wish they'd admit they don't believe at all. There's no way Jared Anderson believes Jesus Christ is the literal Son of God, who condescended from heaven to earth to live as a mortal man, atone for mankind's sin, won victory over death by raising himself from the dead, and now stands as our Savior. I think he believes Jesus is a dude that did some cool things, and then 100 years later his followers rewrote history, injecting in old Mythology, to create a religion out of it. That's fine. But that's not Mormonism.

[NorthwestUteFan]

He nearly says as much. He mentions that ancient writings seem to say that Jesus himself didn't believe in the atonement. Jared says he would be "pleasantly surprised" If the Mormon version of the gospel turned out to be true.

But the bottom line is this: participation in the church is GOOD. It can be a good influence on our lives, and in the lives of our family members. There are a great many things about the church that make me say "WTH?", and a large number of things that are easily proven to be historically inaccurate at best, or even blatant obfuscation. Revelation seems to have ceased for the past several decades, and even the overwhelming majority of Joseph Smith's body of revelation and written scripture seem to be lifted directly from books, stories, and traditions which were present in his surrounding community.

But does this belief mean I should sacrifice the tradition, pageantry, and the meditative spirituality I feel at church? Would you prefer that all people who don't believe exactly as you do should simply stop coming to church so they don't sully your "Mormonism"? This all in or all out attitude is troubling.

[pellegrino]

It was very informative. I didn't like it in the sense that Jared really seems proud of himself that he could know so much about the New Testament yet still call himself a Mormon. I hear some of these guys talk, and I just wish they'd admit they don't believe at all. There's no way Jared Anderson believes Jesus Christ is the literal Son of God, who condescended from heaven to earth to live as a mortal man, atone for mankind's sin, won victory over death by raising himself from the dead, and now stands as our Savior. I think he believes Jesus is a dude that did some cool things, and then 100 years later his followers rewrote history, injecting in old Mythology, to create a religion out of it. That's fine. But that's not Mormonism.

the question shouldn't be about whether or not the myth is true, but rather what kind of power can come from the myth. I think guys like Jared realizes that there is great power in religion and that is what keeps them engaged.

[creekster]

the question shouldn't be about whether or not the myth is true, but rather what kind of power can come from the myth. I think guys like Jared realizes that there is great power in religion and that is what keeps them engaged.

That sounds like you are suggesting they exchanged the myth for the myth of the myth. What power does the myth have for the self aware if not of a type like the unexamined myth possessed?

[Moliere]

I listened to the Jared Anderson podcast over the last weekend, "An Academic Introduction to the New Testament", and liked it so much that I immediately repeated it. This is an informative and entertaining historical approach to the books of the New Testament.

I rate this one "very highly recommended".

http://mormonstories.org/?p=1476

This podcast is very good. It's been a while since I've heard it, but I remember learning quite a bit.

I will say that Jared does put some very definitive statements on items that are not definitive, such as authorship (or lack of authorship) of certain NT books and added/changed verses. I'm not saying he's wrong (it's not my field of study or place to do that) but I'm just saying that he's more absolute than he probably should be in some areas.

[pellegrino]

That sounds like you are suggesting they exchanged the myth for the myth of the myth. What power does the myth have for the self aware if not of a type like the unexamined myth possessed?

I think you'd be surprised.

Nietzsche once said that the Greeks raised white statues of their gods against the black abyss, to hide it, for without the myth there is nothing but the abyss of nihilism.

[Jeff Lebowski]

It was very informative. I didn't like it in the sense that Jared really seems proud of himself that he could know so much about the New Testament yet still call himself a Mormon. I hear some of these guys talk, and I just wish they'd admit they don't believe at all. There's no way Jared Anderson believes Jesus Christ is the literal Son of God, who condescended from heaven to earth to live as a mortal man, atone for mankind's sin, won victory over death by raising himself from the dead, and now stands as our Savior. I think he believes Jesus is a dude that did some cool things, and then 100 years later his followers rewrote history, injecting in old Mythology, to create a religion out of it. That's fine. But that's not Mormonism.

So what?

[jay santos]

He nearly says as much. He mentions that ancient writings seem to say that Jesus himself didn't believe in the atonement. Jared says he would be "pleasantly surprised" If the Mormon version of the gospel turned out to be true.

But the bottom line is this: participation in the church is GOOD. It can be a good influence on our lives, and in the lives of our family members. There are a great many things about the church that make me say "WTH?", and a large number of things that are easily proven to be historically inaccurate at best, or even blatant obfuscation. Revelation seems to have ceased for the past several decades, and even the overwhelming majority of Joseph Smith's body of revelation and written scripture seem to be lifted directly from books, stories, and traditions which were present in his surrounding community.

But does this belief mean I should sacrifice the tradition, pageantry, and the meditative spirituality I feel at church? Would you prefer that all people who don't believe exactly as you do should simply stop coming to church so they don't sully your "Mormonism"? This all in or all out attitude is troubling.

I definitely don't think all non-literal believers should stop attending church.

But I have a real issue with this. I've thought through this for several years and tried to understand, but the more I ponder I think the further I get from the Jared Anderson types. It's OK to say you don't believe Jesus is the Christ, but you still want to hang around the Mormon Church. It just doesn't feel right to say "yeah I believe Jesus is the Christ. It's a powerful myth." When really you don't believe in Jesus at all.

[CardiacCoug]

I definitely don't think all non-literal believers should stop attending church.

But I have a real issue with this. I've thought through this for several years and tried to understand, but the more I ponder I think the further I get from the Jared Anderson types. It's OK to say you don't believe Jesus is the Christ, but you still want to hang around the Mormon Church. It just doesn't feel right to say "yeah I believe Jesus is the Christ. It's a powerful myth." When really you don't believe in Jesus at all.

Seems like just semantics to me. What does it mean to believe? If you like the myth of Jesus and think it helps you live your life in a good way, then you believe in Him.

[jay santos]

So what?

I don't know. I was just finished my last post explaining my thoughts, but I don't feel that confident in them. I guess I feel like if you're an active LDS you either are a literal believer or you should keep your doubts yourself in public? Small issues are OK. But Jesus as myth...just seems kind over the top.

[UtahDan]

Dan, are you still a general believer in Christ? It appears you still have some interest in the bible, is that purely academic or is there something more to it?

If those questions are too personal you don't have to answer.

I believe that he existed. I believe that with a few exceptions the teachings that are attributed to him (and may well have come from him) are not only a massive part of the history of western civilization that you must know to be culturally literate, but also represent perhaps the best expression of the highest ideals of man kind. They simply resonate. Yes they can be found in other forms, but these are our stories. Basically, I love the teachings of Jesus.

But do I believe in his divinity? Let's just say that the scholarship which surrounds how much divinity he attributed to himself and how much of that was later invention is fascinating to me.

[Levin]

Seems like just semantics to me. What does it mean to believe? If you like the myth of Jesus and think it helps you live your life in a good way, then you believe in Him.

This is nonsense.

I like the myth of Santa Clause, and it helps me live my live in a good way, to be more giving. Does that mean I believe in Santa Clause?

Let's get real: to say you believe in Jesus Christ, means you believe he's the Son of God and Savior of mankind.

If it's just a myth that isn't actually true, but it helps you live a good life, then that's not believing in Christ. That's just learning from a myth like people can from any good story.

This sentiment is fine, but at least describe what it is accurately. It's: I derive benefits from story of Jesus Christ. "I like it," as you say. It helps me out in some ways. That doesn't mean you believe in Christ any more than I believe in Santa Clause.

[Levin]

But do I believe in his divinity? Let's just say that the scholarship which surrounds how much divinity he attributed to himself and how much of that was later invention is fascinating to me.

Now you're starting to sound about as evasive as Christ was about whether he was the Son of God.

The difference is the courage.

[CardiacCoug]

This is nonsense.

I like the myth of Santa Clause, and it helps me live my live in a good way, to be more giving. Does that mean I believe in Santa Clause?

Let's get real: to say you believe in Jesus Christ, means you believe he's the Son of God and Savior of mankind.

If it's just a myth that isn't actually true, but it helps you live a good life, then that's not believing in Christ. That's just learning from a myth like people can from any good story.

This sentiment is fine, but at least describe what it is accurately. It's: I derive benefits from story of Jesus Christ. "I like it," as you say. It helps me out in some ways. That doesn't mean you believe in Christ any more than I believe in Santa Clause.

It's Santa Claus.

You don't know if the whole thing is a myth or not and neither do I. It's not something that can be known, in my opinion.

[creekster]

I think you'd be surprised.

Nietzsche once said that the Greeks raised white statues of their gods against the black abyss, to hide it, for without the myth there is nothing but the abyss of nihilism.

Yea, I get that. My point, as Santos is saying as well, I think, is that these guys aren't leaving the myth behind, they are exchanging one myth for another. Instead of the original myth, they adopt the myth of the myth, if you will. This is fine, and certainly doesn't bother me per se, but I find it ironic that many of these sorts (and I do NOT mean to pick on Andersen here, as i haven't even listened to his podcast) ridicule the believers in the myth as being deluded and lacking awareness when they themselves cling to the myth of the myth, perhaps for the same reasons (shielding their eyes from the abyss, if you will) that the believers have for their own supposed self-delusion.