mormonstories.org

[UtahDan]

I agree with this. I think there are plenty of people that do not want to choose a team. They are comfortable drifting from group to group. They understand those that have fallen away but have relationships and share a common language with those that are in. They don't buy all the LDS church teaches, but they appreciate a good portion of it along with other positive aspects.

Dan seems to be saying that there is really no "big tent." There is just a tent. A very strict tent and you have to choose to be in or out and there is no re-entry.

It seems predictable, though, that one that has chosen a team would believe that there is no other way.

I'm not saying the tent is not big or that it cannot be made bigger. I think it can. I just think that a high level of dissonance proves to be emotionally unsustainable for most people in time. If you believe on some level, you are going to be okay. If the church makes you happy on some level, same thing. But people who go to church week in and week out and feel frustrated by what they are hearing or feeling (or not hearing or feeling) don't last in my experience, not more than a couple years.

I am all for people finding creative ways to bridge the divide. If they can do it, then good for them. I have zero problem with whatever makes people feel happy and fulfilled. And I would love to be wrong about this. I'm just saying that from what I have seen (which certainly may be self selecting) a lot of people who are not really believers any more make a very valiant go at figuring out a way to stay in, but ultimately don't find the juice to be worth the squeeze. The cost of the pain outweighs the cost of the change in time. Like I say, I have no stake in being right, I'm just giving my opinion of what is typical.

[RobinFinderson]

I see. In other words, you think I am being hypocritical.

Robin, please stop pretending to be such a martyr for MS. I can guarantee you that I have spent more time participating in and I know a hell of a lot more about that group than you do. I like MS. I have lots of friends in the MS crowd. I think I have earned the right to express my opinion about a policy decision that they are debating.

I don't even know what that little thing means.

You don't earn the right to call someone a hypocrite. That is a right you always have. Whether your opinion is respectable or not depends on the evidence. No evidence, no respect. You earn respect by presenting a reasonable argument for hypocrisy.

But I don't think I ever criticized your use of the word. You jumped in when I pointed out that CJ was using the word hypocrite very loosely, and with no support. I think we should reserve that word for only those situations where the hypocrisy is noteworthy, and where we can back it up with evidence, because calling someone a hypocrite without evidence is just character assassination.

[RobinFinderson]

I agree with this. I think there are plenty of people that do not want to choose a team. They are comfortable drifting from group to group. They understand those that have fallen away but have relationships and share a common language with those that are in. They don't buy all the LDS church teaches, but they appreciate a good portion of it along with other positive aspects.

Dan seems to be saying that there is really no "big tent." There is just a tent. A very strict tent and you have to choose to be in or out and there is no re-entry.

It seems predictable, though, that one that has chosen a team would believe that there is no other way.

BTW, I would just like to tip my hat to this much more interesting parallel conversation. Carry on.

[RobinFinderson]

P.S. Jeff, I'm hardly a martyr for MS. I don't even really care about that community, except for some of its outstanding members. But the more I think about Mormonism, the less I want to think about it more. At this point I'm watching my whole interest and investment in the church decay like a radioactive isotope. It's taking its time, but the progress is steady. I don't have any love for JD, nor do I even think that his project is all that interesting, though I acknowledge its true and legitimate value to some other people. None of what I've said is about some martyr complex for MS. I'm just making a comment about the way we use the word 'hypocrite.' It is a darn strong word, and I don't think we should use it without accompanying the label with a strong justification.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I don't even know what that little thing means.

You don't earn the right to call someone a hypocrite. That is a right you always have. Whether your opinion is respectable or not depends on the evidence. No evidence, no respect. You earn respect by presenting a reasonable argument for hypocrisy.

But I don't think I ever criticized your use of the word. You jumped in when I pointed out that CJ was using the word hypocrite very loosely, and with no support. I think we should reserve that word for only those situations where the hypocrisy is noteworthy, and where we can back it up with evidence, because calling someone a hypocrite without evidence is just character assassination.

Whoa. Now we are all the way to "character assassination"?

OK, you have earned this one fair and square:

Oh brother.

[Jeff Lebowski]

P.S. Jeff, I'm hardly a martyr for MS. I don't even really care about that community, except for some of its outstanding members. But the more I think about Mormonism, the less I want to think about it more. At this point I'm watching my whole interest and investment in the church decay like a radioactive isotope. It's taking its time, but the progress is steady. I don't have any love for JD, nor do I even think that his project is all that interesting, though I acknowledge its true and legitimate value to some other people. None of what I've said is about some martyr complex for MS. I'm just making a comment about the way we use the word 'hypocrite.' It is a darn strong word, and I don't think we should use it without accompanying the label with a strong justification.

I was just telling my kids yesterday how we are all hypocrites from time to time. It's human nature. It is easy to point out the faults in others but no so easy to admit our own faults.

[Viking]

Jefe, I bet, makes $60-70,000 (net) on cougarboard. He's not going to retire off that, but it's nice to make money on a hobby. Good for him.

[Flystripper]

Come on. There must be someone here who will put a number to it. The number is worth thinking about because my guess is that no matter what number it is, it'll be a big deal to uncorrelated Mormons. We're a people who are incredibly sensitive about who gets paid how much for the kind of work MS does.

Here are some best practices for nonprofit executive compensation. If John is not following these practices yet he should consider adopting these policies or he may find himself in trouble with the IRS at some point. I can't put a number to it because I don't know enough about the organization and I don't have my hands on a comparable compensation study. As long as he is within the rules set forth by the IRS to maintain nonprofit status I don't give a rats ass what he makes.

http://charitylawyerblog.com/2011/03...-compensation/

[YOhio]

Here are some best practices for nonprofit executive compensation. If John is not following these practices yet he should consider adopting these policies or he may find himself in trouble with the IRS at some point. I can't put a number to it because I don't know enough about the organization and I don't have my hands on a comparable compensation study. As long as he is within the rules set forth by the IRS to maintain nonprofit status I don't give a rats ass what he makes.

http://charitylawyerblog.com/2011/03...-compensation/

Good post, Flystripper. It’s also kind of what rubs me wrong about the way Dehlin has gone about soliciting donations. If he has forgone other employment opportunities in order to work on the website then he has an obligation to his family and those he supports to run the thing like a business. Following established practices and setting up the proper controls is a good start. Rather it seems to this point that he’s playing the guilt card and hoping the participants won’t forget that his kids need health insurance.

[The Rambam]

Good post, Flystripper. It’s also kind of what rubs me wrong about the way Dehlin has gone about soliciting donations. If he has forgone other employment opportunities in order to work on the website then he has an obligation to his family and those he supports to run the thing like a business. Following established practices and setting up the proper controls is a good start. Rather it seems to this point that he’s playing the guilt card and hoping the participants won’t forget that his kids need health insurance.

I agree, and apparently John agrees. From the Mormon Stories post comments:

Adam Ford 5 days ago
John,

You really need to take the next step and put yourself on a disclosed salary with defined roles in the organization. Most of us are trained to never give money to orgs that don't issue detailed, sworn and audited financial reports--the risk of abuse is just too great. No one doubts your integrity (I sure don't), but it is a lot to ask for donations into a black hole. If you need help getting it set up right, let me know. I'm happy to help with legal stuff (just don't ask me to do a spreadsheet). Once set up properly, the money will flow in, I'm sure.All the best,Adam Ford
2 people liked this. Like Reply

johndehlin 5 days ago in reply to Adam Ford
Adam,

I agree. Last time this came up it was voted down by the board (I voted for it, for the record). I'll bring it up again next meeting. I'm sure your voice will carry weight.

John
Flag

[Moliere]

I agree, and apparently John agrees. From the Mormon Stories post comments:

Adam Ford 5 days ago
John,

You really need to take the next step and put yourself on a disclosed salary with defined roles in the organization. Most of us are trained to never give money to orgs that don't issue detailed, sworn and audited financial reports--the risk of abuse is just too great. No one doubts your integrity (I sure don't), but it is a lot to ask for donations into a black hole. If you need help getting it set up right, let me know. I'm happy to help with legal stuff (just don't ask me to do a spreadsheet). Once set up properly, the money will flow in, I'm sure.All the best,Adam Ford
2 people liked this. Like Reply

johndehlin 5 days ago in reply to Adam Ford
Adam,

I agree. Last time this came up it was voted down by the board (I voted for it, for the record). I'll bring it up again next meeting. I'm sure your voice will carry weight.

John
Flag

I'm glad you posted this. I bet it will spark an entertaining discussion.

[NorthwestUteFan]

Could he sell the podcasts for a buck per download, a la iTunes? That may compensate the organization somewhat, but at the same time I think it would drop the volume of downloads significantly which goes against his desire to reach out and help as many as possible. The problem is the potential customer base is extremely small, less than half of the church members if even that.

A few of the interviews are exceptionally rare, and so far as I have heard, most are very good. Michael Quinn and Richard Bushman rarely if ever give interviews and both were excellent.

[NorthwestUteFan]

I listened to the Jared Anderson podcast over the last weekend, "An Academic Introduction to the New Testament", and liked it so much that I immediately repeated it. This is an informative and entertaining historical approach to the books of the New Testament.

I rate this one "very highly recommended".

http://mormonstories.org/?p=1476

[UtahDan]

I listened to the Jared Anderson podcast over the last weekend, "An Academic Introduction to the New Testament", and liked it so much that I immediately repeated it. This is an informative and entertaining historical approach to the books of the New Testament.

I rate this one "very highly recommended".

http://mormonstories.org/?p=1476

Yeah people who want to learn something new that is neutral towards the church should listen to this. You basically get an introduction to the NT that you would get in a 101 level college class on the topic in 3-4 hours. There is a ton of interesting scholarship on the NT. I have been reading Raymond Brown's introduction to the NT which I cannot recommend enough:

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Testament-Anchor-Reference-Library/dp/0385247672"]Amazon.com: An Introduction to the New Testament (Anchor Bible Reference Library) (9780385247672): Raymond E. Brown: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51kZIPTVIxL.@@AMEPARAM@@51kZIPTVIxL[/ame]

[MarkGrace]

Dan, are you still a general believer in Christ? It appears you still have some interest in the bible, is that purely academic or is there something more to it?

If those questions are too personal you don't have to answer.