Repentance and confession - What would you do?

[tooblue]

It's even scarier to examine church doctrine and accept that it may well be the best course of action. You never know where complete honesty and forgiveness may lead.

Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

[tooblue]

It's scary to try to examine church practice and think for oneself. You never know where the examination may lead. So many prefer not to think at all.

It's even scarier to examine church doctrine and accept that it may well be the best course of action. You never know where complete honesty and forgiveness may lead.

[Surfah]

Is it safe to assume that those in the camp of he shouldn't tell his wife also believe that he shouldn't tell his current Bishop?

I ask, because what if he doesn't tell his wife but meets with his Bishop and he tells him he needs to tell his wife? What then? Does he wait another 10 years or until another Bishop may advise him otherwise?

Or another hypothetical, lets say he returns to church and makes no confession to anyone but the Bishop discovers that he's not currently in good standing with the Church (disfellowshipped by his previous Bishop)? What then?

[Babs]

But there are plenty of people who consider diversity of thought and opinion a bad thing and would rather not consider alternative ideas to their own.

It's scary to try to examine church practice and think for oneself. You never know where the examination may lead. So many prefer not to think at all.

[tooblue]

This thread is a tragedy? I thought it was interesting -- I like to hear different opinions on this stuff.

But there are plenty of people who consider diversity of thought and opinion a bad thing and would rather not consider alternative ideas to their own. I get it. No problem.

Tragedies are infinitely interesting -- ergo my designating this thread as such. If your intent is to insinuate I am one of the 'plenty of people' that's too bad ... and a interesting twist to the tragedy.

[CardiacCoug]

And can you step back and see your role in the tragedy that is this thread? Or, are you just right -- and you have all the answers.

This thread is a tragedy? I thought it was interesting -- I like to hear different opinions on this stuff.

But there are plenty of people who consider diversity of thought and opinion a bad thing and would rather not consider alternative ideas to their own. I get it. No problem.

[tooblue]

At the beginning of the thread we were told to assume that he has been faithful since that indiscretion at the beginning of his marriage. That means, to me, that he made a mistake (or mistakes) then, and hasn't made them since then. He's turned from his mistakes. He's been lovingly faithful to his wife since then. He's had children with her. That, to me, shows that he's progressed. It shows that he overcame his sin and turned from it.

Who knows. I'm fairly certain he's kept his nose clean based on outward appearance and the rumor mill, but let's assume for this discussion that he has stayed clean...and I'm pretty sure that's the case

Assumptions are tricky. I would bet that he has been and done all the things you mention. However, he hasn't fully turned from the mistake because it is now facing him front and center.

[Tim]

That is assuming that he has made progress. Time does not heal all wounds. And perhaps the only way the man can measure whether or not he has progressed is by counseling with his Bishop to determine what is the best course of action ... in fact could that be, in part, the impetus for returning to religion?

At the beginning of the thread we were told to assume that he has been faithful since that indiscretion at the beginning of his marriage. That means, to me, that he made a mistake (or mistakes) then, and hasn't made them since then. He's turned from his mistakes. He's been lovingly faithful to his wife since then. He's had children with her. That, to me, shows that he's progressed. It shows that he overcame his sin and turned from it.

[Surfah]

Time out, though. Don't we believe that God will judge us on progress? That it's about how far we've made it, and that the Atonement will take up the rest of our progress? Truly, whether or not he confessed his previous sin to his wife, the man has progressed since then. He's overcome his sin and developed a deep relationship with his wife. In that sense, he has repented of it. He has turned from it and changed his behavior.

At this point, with him already having changed, telling his wife seems more like an arbitrary point of order than a critical piece of the process?

So the sinner completely disregards the counsel and terms of restitution for this man's repentance, but because 10 years have passed he can now find forgiveness? Part of progression is heeding the counsel of your leaders (for Cardiac - so long as you believe them to be called of God and integral to working out your salvation).

DDD said it best that there is something troublesome when we shop for forum with a friendly venue.

[tooblue]

Time out, though. Don't we believe that God will judge us on progress? That it's about how far we've made it, and that the Atonement will take up the rest of our progress? Truly, whether or not he confessed his previous sin to his wife, the man has progressed since then. He's overcome his sin and developed a deep relationship with his wife. In that sense, he has repented of it. He has turned from it and changed his behavior.

At this point, with him already having changed, telling his wife seems more like an arbitrary point of order than a critical piece of the process?

That is assuming that he has made progress. Time does not heal all wounds. And perhaps the only way the man can measure whether or not he has progressed is by counseling with his Bishop to determine what is the best course of action ... in fact could that be, in part, the impetus for returning to religion?

[Tim]

I hope he also has that attitude...."hey, don't worry about it...it was 10 years ago. Let's live in the present"

Time out, though. Don't we believe that God will judge us on progress? That it's about how far we've made it, and that the Atonement will take up the rest of our progress? Truly, whether or not he confessed his previous sin to his wife, the man has progressed since then. He's overcome his sin and developed a deep relationship with his wife. In that sense, he has repented of it. He has turned from it and changed his behavior.

At this point, with him already having changed, telling his wife seems more like an arbitrary point of order than a critical piece of the process?

[tooblue]

I don't see anyone taking the moral high ground by saying don't tell.

I think it's a personal matter. I object to the automatic requirement to tell the biship. It's just a way to deliver yourself to their authority and control. There's a practical reason for this, by the way. If an affair goes on for very long the marriage is at high risk of ending. This is a way for the LDS Church to have a say in life choices that confront someone when they fall in love with someone outside of marriage. That has certain salutory effects, no doubt, but I think it's no way for grown ups to solve their problems. I think unhappy marriages are harder on kids than divorce, even some of the most quarrelsom divorces. Also, most marriages that continue in such conditions aren't happy ones. See Oblonsky. In the end adults need to solve such dilemmas on their own and accept the consequences.

Integrity and honesty are arguably about giving the confessor satisfaction; about the confessor more than the recipient of the confession. Confessing will arguably destroy trust whereas not telling would not. Tell your wife you slept with another woman, especially if you did it lots of times, and things will never ever be the same. Probably neither you nor I can comprehend the suffering. I actually think the most compelling time to do it is when you tell her you're leaving and she wants to know why. Then I think she has more of a right to know than if it's been over for ten years and you're happy.

Do you not recognize the contradictions in your above statement ...

I think unhappy marriages are harder on kids than divorce, even some of the most quarrelsom divorces. Also, most marriages that continue in such conditions aren't happy ones.

Integrity and honesty are arguably about giving the confessor satisfaction; about the confessor more than the recipient of the confession. Confessing will arguably destroy trust whereas not telling would not.

Integrity and honesty are paramount to any relationship. Honesty is always the best policy. That is a HUMAN ideal. Arguably there is no trust here to destroy because the man has not been trustworthy for more than 10 years.

Do you truly believe he is happy -- why then is he even considering confession? And if he is not happy, his marriage is not happy and we can be certain that more than one quarrel has been started because of his unhappiness due to this terrible secret he is harboring.

[tooblue]

Society at large plays no role in the guilt? Self worth and self-esteem is not at issue here? So, this is purely a religious issue ... have you really thought this through or does your bitterness blind you so effectively that your stupidity knows no bounds.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/05/health/05baka.html

First sex was associated with a decrease in self-esteem, but only among girls who were younger than the average age and not in a romantic relationship. Girls who had sex at the average age or later had no increased risk for depressive symptoms compared with those who had not had sex.

[tooblue]

Definitely a vicious cycle. I agree.

Kind of like the vicious cycle that occurs with some gay people in the Church: A devout LDS teenager decides he's gay and confesses this to his Bishop and parents. He then is told by his Bishop and his parents that his sexual orientation is immoral and that God would never make somebody that way -- it's the result of sin. The kid feels so guilty and unable to reconcile his gayness to his religion that he spirals downhill and eventually kills himself.

The Bishop and parents conclude: Homosexuality is terrible. It destroy individuals and families. They can't step back to see their own role in the tragedy because they can't release themselves from the Church's dominion.

If everybody involved had just ignored the Church dogma, the vicious cycle could have been exited.

And can you step back and see your role in the tragedy that is this thread? Or, are you just right -- and you have all the answers.

[tooblue]

I think that's right. And it's not an easily answered question in the case of infidelity. I bet most professionals would say don't confess if it's ten years old, etc., and/or there's no reason to, such as it's over.

For confession to have any effect you have to regard the person to whom you're confessing as in some kind of a position to have been wronged by your sin or in a position to make it good for you. It think to put a clergy in that position is just plain childish. I understand there are psychic reasons why telling the person you harmed my be a relief.

Again, your ignorance is unfathomable.