How would you discipline?

[Indy Coug]

Two points and I'm fairly passionate about both of them

1. Touching a girls boobs or masturbating or porn viewing is not one of these misdeeds that would cause you to be unworthy of baptism. Lower level sexual sins if they be sins at all (they would be according to my definition but I doubt they would according to the accepted definition of the majority here) need not be confessed and they need not spend an inordinate amount of time being anguished over by our good youth.

This then gets into what I'll call the Elder Packer logic because I've heard this sentiment attributed to him. "We can't tell the saints how merciful God is because then they wouldn't try as hard to keep the commandments." paraphrased "We can't let Mormons feel good about themselves because then the level of legalism will decrease and that's something we really need."

In other words, we can't define a standard of what is bishop confession worthy because then the youth will sin up to that point but not over and that's not following God and if you do think you're going to do that, you'll end up crossing the line anyway. So we'll generally guilt trip them about anything and everything and make them all feel unworthy to take the sacrament.

2. These kids should be talking to their parents about sex not the bishop. We have it bass ackwards. We have one of our best bishops here and even he is basically conspiring with teenagers to hide their behavior from their parents. So all the parenting involved here, discussion about what is appropriate sexual behavior, discussion about how to overcome any behaviors if the child and parent agree its behavior that should be overcome, discussion about how they should feel about themselves, about how God sees them, all that is diverted away from the parent and to a bishop who has no training, no standardization across the church, likely has a completely different view of the gospel of me (and I'm right he's wrong!), doesn't know my kid like I do and doesn't love my kid like I do. Damn that makes me mad as a father of teenagers.

I didn't attempt to codify what acts should be grounds for postponement of baptism or the witholding of the sacrament, I merely attempted to explain why the two concepts were analogous.

[jay santos]

I didn't attempt to codify what acts should be grounds for postponement of baptism or the witholding of the sacrament, I merely attempted to explain why the two concepts were analogous.

I understand but your logic doesn't work because the act of withholding sacrament for a boobie touch was what prompted the comment. I don't think anyone would take issue with withholding sacrament for acts that would fall into the seriousness level you're talking about.

[SoCalCoug]

That reminds of one of the great unsolved mysteries in CUF history. SoCal it is time to reveal your final answer.

The answer is, yes, I was a 29-year-old virgin when I was married the first time.

[KillerDog]

Does it make sense to have a worthiness requirement for taking the sacrament? I don't think so. Essentially, we are taught that the sacrament is a renewal of covenants and application of the atonement. If worthiness was a requirement for renewing covenants, none would ever be renewed. If worthiness were required to apply the atonement, no one would ever be able to be forgiven because their sins would make them unable to repent.

Confession of sins has gone far afield in the modern church.

[jay santos]

I absolutely think being too soft can backfire much as being too harsh can. Each bishop obviously has his own personality, part of mine is to make people feel they can be open, honest and discuss whatever needs to be talked about. Perhaps I error on being too lenient in comparison to others. With that said, If someone was coming to me every month with the same problem, I would obviously need to try a different approach because whatever I was or wasn't doing doesn't seem to be working.

I'm still bothered by this.

I'm sorry AV if you think I'm attacking you. I'm attacking the office of bishop and LDS practices in general, not you. I know you're doing your best, and you're not my target audience.

The sentiment expressed here, though, is so troubling to me. A bishop thinking it's his job to force his definition of sexual purity on teenagers and using concepts such as judgment, punishments, harshness, leniency to affect change. And feeling responsible if it's not "working" causing him to try different approaches.

Really it makes me sick.

[falafel]

Really it makes me sick.

Really? Makes you sick? This seems a bit over dramatic. These kids (or their families) have signed up for this. If they don't like it, go somewhere else. This isn't the federal government cramming morals down their throats.

[jay santos]

Really? Makes you sick? This seems a bit over dramatic. These kids (or their families) have signed up for this. If they don't like it, go somewhere else. This isn't the federal government cramming morals down their throats.

The "don't like it, then leave" argument?

And yeah sure I'm being a little dramatic, that's what the internet's for isn't it?

[Art Vandelay]

I'm still bothered by this.

I'm sorry AV if you think I'm attacking you. I'm attacking the office of bishop and LDS practices in general, not you. I know you're doing your best, and you're not my target audience.

The sentiment expressed here, though, is so troubling to me. A bishop thinking it's his job to force his definition of sexual purity on teenagers and using concepts such as judgment, punishments, harshness, leniency to affect change. And feeling responsible if it's not "working" causing him to try different approaches.

Really it makes me sick.

Believe me when I say the last thing I want to hear from a youth or an adult is anything sexual in nature. but at least the pay you get with the calling makes it all worthwhile...oh and the fact we get to share with one another the sordid details of our ward members sexual dalliances, that's pretty cool too.

[LA Ute]

A bishop thinking it's his job to force his definition of sexual purity on teenagers and using concepts such as judgment, punishments, harshness, leniency to affect change. And feeling responsible if it's not "working" causing him to try different approaches.

Really it makes me sick.

Isn't that all just part of the bishop's calling and keys, which include being a "common judge in Israel?" I hope bishops are not routinely forcing their own definitions of such things on anyone - there's no need for that, because there's so much guidance in the CHOI and elsewhere. I'm sure there are bishops who get some things wrong -- that just goes with having a lay ministry (and I am not sure highly-trained professional clergy do all that much better -- see the Catholic sex abuse scandals, for example).

[Indy Coug]

Believe me when I say the last thing I want to hear from a youth or an adult is anything sexual in nature. but at least the pay you get with the calling makes it all worthwhile...oh and the fact we get to share with one another the sordid details of our ward members sexual dalliances, that's pretty cool too.

Jay needs to be a bishop. Really, really badly.

[jay santos]

Isn't that all just part of the bishop's calling and keys, which include being a "common judge in Israel?" I hope bishops are not routinely forcing their own definitions of such things on anyone - there's no need for that, because there's so much guidance in the CHOI and elsewhere. I'm sure there are bishops who get some things wrong -- that just goes with having a lay ministry (and I am not sure highly-trained professional clergy do all that much better -- see the Catholic sex abuse scandals, for example).

I think it's obvious based on the range of experience people have with bishops that there is either not enough guidance in the CHOI or it's not heeded.

P.S. That's not a criticism of bishops. How could there be standardization for the myriad of situations a bishop is faced with?

[Tick's wife]

Believe me when I say the last thing I want to hear from a youth or an adult is anything sexual in nature. but at least the pay you get with the calling makes it all worthwhile...oh and the fact we get to share with one another the sordid details of our ward members sexual dalliances, that's pretty cool too.

but then you can go home and get laid, because you are aroused, and mark yes on the bishops getting laid poll.

[wuapinmon]

but then you can go home and get laid, because you are aroused, and mark yes on the bishops getting laid poll.

You've used this line before, indirectly. I think you're crossing a major line in accusing ArtVandelay of such behavior. It's unseemly.

[Art Vandelay]

You've used this line before, indirectly. I think you're crossing a major line in accusing ArtVandelay of such behavior. It's unseemly.

Thanks for saying a nice word in my behalf Wuap. TW's post made me chuckle (after I rolled my eyes) I hope that was the point of the comment. Since she doesn't know me and I don't know her, I would rather always assume the best about someone until proven otherwise.

[LA Ute]

You've used this line before, indirectly. I think you're crossing a major line in accusing ArtVandelay of such behavior. It's unseemly.