Things that make you believe in a God

[woot]

Insects have been around forever and dominate the biomass of the earth presently. They are not sentient. Dinosaurs dominated the earth for about 160 million years and may be dominating still if not for an extinction event probably from space. No evidence of sentient dinosaurs. Then in the very most recent moment of the earth's history intelligent life evolves for the first time in a pretty short span of time relatively speaking. I'm starting to think you are being trolled.

Yeah the analogy I've heard is that thinking the point of evolution is humanity is like thinking the point of the Eiffel tower is a random flake on the topcoat of its finish. Even that doesn't do it any justice.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I agree with Creekster, the reverse has been often true. The more we discover, the more holes we open up. Like astrophysicist Freeman Dyson said, for every question science answers, we open up two more.

While this may be technically true, it is often presented in a manner to suggest that science has somehow opened up a pandora's box where new discoveries call into question fundamental scientific principles and science is somehow getting turned on its head. I don't think that is the case at all. Being in a position to discover new questions to ask is a product of scientific progress.

Copernicus knocked us away from the center of the universe, but recent discoveries reveal that the earth is still the universe's biological center and the only place fit for observing the rest of the universe. And the universe looks more and more like a put-up job.Darwin successfully lumped us in with the animal kingdom, but recent evolutionary biology shows the dramatic convergence of independent lines of species, suggesting the inevitability of humanoids. So we are still here with a purpose, and not by chance.

For these reasons we shouldn't afraid to push science as far as it can go.

Who is afraid to push science as far as it can go?

[Borg]

This is true, but this isn't what you said. Eyes and wings have evolved many times. Placentals and marsupials have evolved into various forms that sometimes resemble each other. Hominins evolved exactly once.

Now this is something I KNOW to be true. I know of one marsupial that has evolved to such an extent, that she actually makes coherent post on the interweb.

[Jackrabbit]

Interesting argument. First you'd have to support the argument that species tend to converge. There are several instances in which convergence has occurred, but an overall "tendency"? That would take some work.

I will provisionally accept that natural selection favors more adaptable mutations (only over the very long term, and even then it's dicey, but I'll go with it).

The third argument is where things really fall apart. The brain helps us move in the same way it helps other creatures move, so that doesn't help your argument. Furthermore, brain tissue is extremely expensive metabolically. The evidence strongly suggests that brains are only as big as they absolutely need to be. Case in point: the human brain has gotten significantly smaller over the last couple hundred thousand years. Furthermore, I would argue that having such an enormous brain would have been an extreme disadvantage until such time as it advanced enough to begin producing technologies and allowing us to colonize more of the planet. A big-brained species would have required many more calories as well as specialized nutrients that similar but less encephalized species would not have. They therefore would have required a unique situation in which additional brain power was highly favored while maintaining easy access to plentiful and specialized nutrition. For these reasons, it has been hypothesized that the first hominins may have lived on a coast with easy access to oceanic resources, as that may have been the only way of maintaining such a diet.

Paleodemography would seem to support this, as hominin population numbers were exceptionally low throughout the evolution of our species until only very recently.

If a big brain is so evolutionarily advantageous, why is precisely one living species out of untold millions so enchephalized? It seems that fact alone falsifies your argument.

Allow me to provide your argument for you in a different way. The blue whale is the most highly evolved species who has ever lived, due to its unprecedented size. Evolution tends toward convergence, therefore something the size of the blue whale was inevitable. Why latch onto one attribute in one species and pretend that single attribute was the goal of a 4-billion year process that has produced probably billions of species?

Did you hear anything I said? General direction, not individuial mutations. Your arguments about brain size, time it takes to evolve, blah blah Francis Collins, etc. are irrelevant. Yes, it took a while, but it was still part of the evolutionary process.

Regarding Simon Conway Morris, I'll just say that similar to Francis Collins, the degree to which he argues for the inevitability of humans is the degree to which he departs from the evidence. His views are on the extreme fringe in this regard, and his conclusions make no sense except in the light of his religion.

This is utter hogwash.

[Jackrabbit]

In animals
The skulls of the Thylacine (left) and the Grey Wolf, Canis lupus, are almost identical, although the species are only very distantly related (different infraclasses). The skull shape of the Red Fox, Vulpes vulpes, is even closer to that of the Thylacine.[1][edit] MammalsThe pronghorn antelope of North America, while not a true antelope and only distantly related to them, closely resembles the true antelopes of the Old World, both behaviorally and morphologically. It also fills a similar ecological niche and is found in the same biomes.
Members of the two clades Australosphenida and theria evolved tribosphenic molars independently.
The marsupial thylacine (Tasmanian Tiger) had many resemblances to the placental canids.
Several mammal groups have independently evolved prickly protrusions of the skin – echidnas (monotremes), the insectivorous hedgehogs, some tenrecs (a diverse group of shrew-like Madagascan mammals), Old World porcupines (rodents) and New World porcupines (another biological family of rodents). In this case, because the two groups of porcupines are closely related, they would be considered to be examples of parallel evolution; however, neither echidnas, nor hedgehogs, nor tenrecs are close relatives of the Rodentia. In fact, the last common ancestor of all of these groups was a contemporary of the dinosaurs.
Cat-like sabre-toothed predators evolved in three distinct lineages of mammals – sabre-toothed cats, Nimravids ("false" sabre-tooths), and the marsupial "lion" thylacosmilus. Gorgonopsids and creodonts also developed long canine teeth, but with no other particular physical similarities.
A number of mammals have developed powerful fore claws and long, sticky tongues that allow them to open the homes of social insects (e.g., ants and termites) and consume them (myrmecophagy). These include the four species of anteater, more than a dozen armadillos, eight species of pangolin (plus fossil species), the African aardvark, one echidna (an egg-laying monotreme), the enigmatic Fruitafossor, the singular Australian marsupial known as the numbat, the aberrant aardwolf, and possibly also the sloth bear of South Asia, all not related.
Koalas of Australasia have evolved fingerprints, indistinguishable from those of humans. Apes' fingerprints are very similar to those too.
The Australian honey possums acquired a long tongue for taking nectar from flowers, a structure similar to that of butterflies, some moths, and hummingbirds, and used to accomplish the very same task.
Marsupial sugar glider and squirrel glider of Australia are like the placental flying squirrel.
The North American kangaroo rat, Australian hopping mouse, and North African and Asian jerboa have developed convergent adaptations for hot desert environments; these include a small rounded body shape with very large hind legs and long thin tails, a characteristic bipedal hop, and nocturnal, burrowing and seed-eating behaviours. These rodent groups fill similar niches in their respective ecosystems.
Opossums have evolved an opposable thumb, a feature which is also commonly found in the non-related primates.
Marsupial mole has many resemblances to the placental mole.
Marsupial mulgara has many resemblances to the placental mouse.
Planigale has many resemblances to the deer mouse.
Marsupial Tasmanian devil has many resemblances to the placental wolverine.
Kangaroo has many resemblances to the Patagonian cavy.
The Marsupial lion had retractable claws, the same way the placental felines (cats) do today.
Microbats, toothed whales and shrews developed sonar-like echolocation systems used for navigation and for locating prey. DNA study has shown that echolocation in two types of bats, megachiroptera and microchiroptera, came about independently.
Both the aye-aye lemur and the striped possum have an elongated finger used to get invertebrates from trees. There are no woodpeckers in Madagascar or Australia where the species evolved, so the supply of invertebrates in trees was large.
Castorocauda and beaver both have webbed feet and a flattened tail, but are not related.
Prehensile tails came in to a number of unrelated species New World monkeys, kinkajous, porcupines, tree-anteaters, marsupial opossums, and the salamander Bolitoglossa pangolins, treerats, skinks and chameleons.
Pig form, large-headed, pig-snouted and hoofs are independent in true pigs in Eurasia and Peccary and Entelodonts.
Plankton feeding filters, baleen: Whale sharks and baleen whales, like the humpback and blue whale independent have very sophisticated ways of sifting plankton from marine waters.
There are five species of river/freshwater dolphins, which are not closely related.
Platypus have what looks like a bird's Beak (hence its scientific name “Ornithorhynchus”), but is a mammal.
[edit]

[creekster]

Interstign examples but why wouldnt different organisms develop very similar strucutres to accomplsih the same objective? If you want to suck nectar, you better have a long skinny tongue.

[Jackrabbit]

While this may be technically true, it is often presented in a manner to suggest that science has somehow opened up a pandora's box where new discoveries call into question fundamental scientific principles and science is somehow getting turned on its head. I don't think that is the case at all. Being in a position to discover new questions to ask is a product of scientific progress.

Yes. What I meant is, as the Catholic Church has said, there is beauty in mystery, and we shouldn't be afraid of science reducing the amount of mystery in the universe.

[Jackrabbit]

DinosaursOrnithischian (bird-hipped) dinosaurs had a pelvis shape similar to that of birds, or avian dinosaurs, which evolved from saurischian (lizard-hipped) dinosaurs.
The Heterodontosauridae evolved a tibiotarsus which is also found in modern birds. These groups aren't closely related.
Ankylosaurs and glyptodont mammals both had spiked tails.
Horned snouts independently is on non-related dinosaurs like ceratopsians and Triceratops, also rhinos and the brontotheres of the Cenozoic.
Billed snouts on the duck-billed dinosaurs hadrosaurs strikingly convergent with ducks and duck-billed platypus.
Ichthyosaurs a marine reptile of the Mesozoic era looked strikingly like dolphins.
Beaks are independent in ceratopsian dinosaurs like Triceratops, birds and marine mollusks like squid and octopus.
The Pelycosauria and the Ctenosauriscidae beared striking resemblance to each other because they both had a sail-like fin on their back. The Pelycosaurs are more closely related to mammals while the Ctenosauriscids are closely related to pterosaurs and dinosaurs. Also, the Spinosaurids had sail-like fins on their backs, when they were not closely related to either.
Also, Acrocanthosaurus and Ouranosaurus, which are not closely related to either Pelycosaurs, Ctenosauriscids or Spinosaurids, also had similar, but thicker, spines on their vertebrae, and thus have humps, like the unrelated, mammalian camels and bison.
Noasaurus, Baryonyx, and Megaraptor, all unrelated, all had an enlarged hand claw that were originally thought to be placed on the foot, as in dromaeosaurs. A similarly modified claw (or in this case, finger) is on the hand of Iguanodon.
The Ornithopods had feet and beaks that resembled that of birds, but are only distantly related.
[edit] Other reptilesThe thorny devil (Moloch horridus) is similar in diet and activity patterns to the Texas horned lizard (Phrynosoma cornutum), although the two are not particularly closely related.
Modern Crocodilians resemble prehistoric phytosaurs, champsosaurs, certain labyrinthodont amphibians, and perhaps even the early whale Ambulocetus. The resemblance between the crocodilians and phytosaurs in particular is quite striking; even to the point of having evolved the graduation between narrow- and broad-snouted forms, due to differences in diet between particular species in both groups.
The body shape of the prehistoric fish-like reptile Ophthalmosaurus is similar to those of other ichthyosaurians, dolphins (aquatic mammals), and tuna (scombrid fish).
Death Adders strongly resemble true vipers, but are elapids.
The Glass Snake is actually a lizard but is mistaken as a snake .
Large Tegu lizards of South America have converged in form and ecology with monitor lizards, which are not present in the Americas.
legless lizard-Pygopodidae are snake like lizard are much like true snakes.
Mosasaurs of the Mesozoic era are like whales but are closely related to living monitor lizards and the Komodo Dragon.
Anolis lizards are one of the best examples of both adaptive radiation and convergent evolution.
Tuataras resemble lizards but in fact are in an order of their own, the Rhynchocephalia. The Tuatara has the sockets behind the eyes and has jagged extensions of the jaws instead of teeth.
[edit] AvianThe Little Auk of the north Atlantic (Charadriiformes) and the diving-petrels of the southern oceans (Procellariiformes) are remarkably similar in appearance and habits.
Penguins in the Southern Hemisphere evolved similarly to flightless wing-propelled diving auks in the Northern Hemisphere: the Atlantic Great Auk and the Pacific mancallines.
Vultures are a result of convergent evolution: both Old World vultures and New World vultures eat carrion, but Old World vultures are in the eagle and hawk family (Accipitridae) and use mainly eyesight for discovering food; the New World vultures are of obscure ancestry, and some use the sense of smell as well as sight in hunting. Birds of both families are very big, search for food by soaring, circle over sighted carrion, flock in trees, and have unfeathered heads and necks.
Nubian Vulture, an Old World vulture
Turkey Vulture, a New World vulture
Hummingbird, a New World bird, with a sunbird, an Old World bird


Hummingbirds resemble sunbirds. The former live in the Americas and belong to an order or superorder including the swifts, while the latter live in Africa and Asia and are a family in the order Passeriformes.
In an odd cross-species example, an insect, the Hummingbird Hawk-moth (Macroglossum stellatarum), also feeds by hovering in front of flowers and drinking their nectar in the same way as the above mentioned birds.
Flightlessness has evolved in many different birds independently. However, taking this to a greater extreme, the terror birds, Gastornithiformes and dromornithids (ironically all extinct) all evolved the similar body shape (flightlessness, long legs, long necks, big heads), yet none of them were closely related. They also share the trait of being giant, flightless birds with vestigial wings, long legs, and long necks with the ratites, although they are not related.
Certain longclaws (Macronyx) and meadowlarks (Sturnella) have essentially the same striking plumage pattern. The former inhabit Africa and the latter the Americas, and they belong to different lineages of Passerida. While they are ecologically quite similar, no satisfying explanation exists for the convergent plumage; it is best explained by sheer chance.
Resemblances between swifts and swallows is due to convergent evolution.
Downy Woodpecker and Hairy Woodpecker look almost the same, as do some Chrysocolaptes and Dinopium flamebacks, the Smoky-brown Woodpecker and some Veniliornis species, and other Veniliornis species and certain "Picoides" and Piculus. In neither case are the similar species particularly close relatives.
Many birds of Australia, like wrens and robins, look like northern hemisphere birds but are not related.
Oilbird like microbats and toothed whales developed sonar-like echolocation systems used for locating prey.
The brain structure, forebrain, of hummingbirds, songbirds, and parrots responsible for vocal learning (not by instinct) is very similar. These types of birds are not related.
[edit] FishGoby dorsal finned like the lumpsuckers, yet they are not related.
Sandlance fish and chameleons have independent eye movements and focusing by use of the cornea.
Cichlids of South America and the "sunfish" of North America are strikingly similar in morphology, ecology and behavior.
The Peacock Bass and Largemouth Bass are excellent examples.
The Antifreeze protein of fish in the arctic and Antarctic, came about independently.
Eel form are independent in the North American brook lamprey, neotropical eels, and the African spiny eel.
Stickleback fish, there is widespread convergent evolution in Sticklebacks.
Flying fish can fly up to 400 m (1,300 ft)at speeds of more than 70 kilometres per hour (43 mph) at a maximum altitude of more than 6 m (20 ft), much like other flying birds, bats and other gliders.
[edit] AmphibiansPlethodontid salamanders and Chameleons have evolved a harpoon-like tongue to catch insects.
Two lineages of frogs among the Neobatrachia are due for convergent evolution.
The Neotropical poison dart frog and the Mantella of Madagascar have independently developed similar mechanisms for obtaining alkaloids from a diet of mites and storing the toxic chemicals in skin glands. They have also independently evolved similar bright skin colors that warn predators of their toxicity (by the opposite of crypsis, namely aposematism).
Caecilian are Lissamphibians that secondarly lost their limbs, resembling snakes
[edit] ArthropodsAssassin spiders comprise two lineages that evolved independently. They have very long necks and fangs proportionately larger than those of any other spider, and they hunt other spiders by snagging them from a distance.
The smelling organs of the terrestrial coconut crab are similar to those of insects.
Silk: Spiders, silk moths, larval caddis flies, and the weaver ant all produce silken threads.
The praying mantis body type – raptorial forelimb, prehensile neck, and extraordinary snatching speed - has evolved not only in mantid insects but also independently in neuropteran insects Mantispidae.
Agriculture some kinds of ants, termites, and ambrosia beetles have for a long time cultivated and tend fungi for food. These insects sow, fertilize, and weed their crops. A damselfish also takes care of red algae carpets on its piece of reef; the damselfish actively weeds out invading species of algae by nipping out the newcomer.
[edit] MolluscsBivalves and the gastropods in the family Juliidae have very similar shells.
There are limpet-like forms in several lines of gastropods: "true" limpets, pulmonate siphonariid limpets and several lineages of pulmonate freshwater limpets.
Cuttlefish show similarities between cephalopod (nautili, octopods and squid) and vertebrate (Mammalia...) eyes.
Swim bladders – Buoyant bladders independently evolved in fishes, female octopus and siphonophores such as the Portuguese Man o' War.
The phylum Mollusca members such as bivalves, and Phylum brachiopoda members, the brachiopods aka lampshells, independently evolved paired hinged shells for protection. The anatomy of their soft body parts is so dissimilar, however, that they are classified in separate, independent phyla. Biologists think that clams are more closely related to earthworms than they are to brachiopods.
Jet propulsion in squids and in scallops: these two groups of mollusks have very different ways of squeezing water through their bodies in order to power rapid movement through a fluid. (Dragonfly larvae in the aquatic stage also use an anal jet to propel them, and Jellyfish have used jet propulsion for a very long time.)
[edit] OtherThe notochords in chordates are like the stomochords in hemichordates.
Elvis taxon in the fossil record developed a similar morphology through convergent evolution.
Venomous sting: To inject poison with a hypodermic needle, a sharppointed tube, has shown up independently 10+ times: jellyfish, spiders, scorpions, centipedes, various insects, cone shell, snakes, stingrays, stonefish, the male duckbill platypus, and stinging nettles plant.
Bioluminescence: A symbiotic partnerships with light-emitting bacteria developed many times independently in deep-sea fish, jellyfish, and in fireflies and glow worms.
Parthenogenesis: Some lizards and insects have independent the capacity for females to produce live young from unfertilized eggs. Some species are entirely female.
extremely halophile archaeal Family Halobacteriaceae and the extremely halophilic bacterium Salinibacter ruber both can live in high salt environment.
[edit] In plantsLeaves have evolved multiple times - see Evolutionary history of plants.
Prickles, thorns and spines are all modified plant tissues that have evolved to prevent or limit herbivory, these structures have evolved independently a number of times.
Hallucinogenic toxins: Plants as diverse as the peyote cactus and the ayahuasca vine produce the same form of chemical toxin to deter predators.
Stimulant toxins: Plants which are only distantly related to each other, such as coffee and tea, produce caffeine to deter predators.
The aerial rootlets found in ivy (Hedera) are similar to those of the climbing hydrangea (Hydrangea petiolaris) and some other vines. These rootlets are not derived from a common ancestor but have the same function of clinging to whatever support is available.
Flowering plants (Delphinium, Aerangis, Tropaeolum and others) from different regions form tube-like spur which contains nectar (that's why insect from one place sometimes can feed on plant from other which has such structure like the flower which is the traditional source of food for the animal).
Both some dicots (Anemone) and monocots (Trillium) in inhospitable environments are able to form underground organs such as corms, bulbs and rhizomes for reserving of nutrition and water till the conditions become better.
Insectivorous plants: Nitrogen-deficient plants have in at least 7 distinct times become insectivorous, like: flypaper traps\sundew, spring traps-Venus fly trap, and pitcher traps in order to capture and digest insects to obtain scarce nitrogen.
Similar-looking rosette succulents have arisen separately among plants in the families Asphodelaceae (formerly Liliaceae) and Crassulaceae.
The Orchids, the Birthwort family and Stylidiaceae have evolved independently the specific organ known as gynostemium, more popular as column.
The Euphorbia of deserts in Africa and southern Asia, and the Cactaceae of the New World deserts have similar modifications (see picture below for one of many possible examples).
Sunflower: some types of Sunflower and Pericallis are due to convergent evolution.

[Jackrabbit]

Interstign examples but why wouldnt different organisms develop very similar strucutres to accomplsih the same objective? If you want to suck nectar, you better have a long skinny tongue.

You got it, Creekster. That is how evolution works.

[creekster]

You got it, Creekster. That is how evolution works.

Thank you. But I am failing to see the proof of God in this convergence.

[Jackrabbit]

Thank you. But I am failing to see the proof of God in this convergence.

There's no proof of God in here, just indirect evidence that we were destined to be here. God has always been harder to find in biology than physics, but Conway-Morris makes it easier to embrace evolution.

[Jarid in Cedar]

DinosaursOrnithischian (bird-hipped) dinosaurs had a pelvis shape similar to that of birds, or avian dinosaurs, which evolved from saurischian (lizard-hipped) dinosaurs.

...

Paragraphs are your friends

[creekster]

There's no proof of God in here, just indirect evidence that we were destined to be here. God has always been harder to find in biology than physics, but Conway-Morris makes it easier to embrace evolution.

OK, then the inferecne you would have us draw, as I understand it, is that because of these convergences (most if not all of which arise exactly as a non-theological evolutionary system woudl predict, menaing same niche, same needs, etc.) there is a purpose, a direction or a design behind evolution. It is more than a random series of events. Is that it?

[tooblue]

It is certainly true that religion has at times in history gotten in the way of knowledge growing. I guess what I meant is that there aren't any examples of humanity believing something had a natural explanation and finding out it was in fact magical. But it is undeniable that there is also a human tendency to look away from or deny the evidence in furtherance of maintenance of belief and power as the dark ages so amply demonstrate.

Is there a scientific, natural explanation for love? Is love biological, chemical, instinct; will the formula for love ever be discovered so that we may bottle it? Are you talking about magic as illusion or rather as unexplainable phenomena?

[Jackrabbit]

OK, then the inferecne you would have us draw, as I understand it, is that because of these convergences (most if not all of which arise exactly as a non-theological evolutionary system woudl predict, menaing same niche, same needs, etc.) there is a purpose, a direction or a design behind evolution. It is more than a random series of events. Is that it?

Yes. Although no one (not even atheists) claim evolution is random. That we're here randomly is mathematically impossible. This goes beyond that, claiming that the evolution of the mind is inevitable.