Your thoughts on church leaders

[LA Ute]

Is that the first time you've heard that phrase?

No, I see it here, and UtahDan and I have occasionally teased BYU fans by saying "When the Bronco speaks the thinking has been done." But I do not recall hearing the phrase "When the prophet speaks, the thinking is done," actually taught anywhere. That's just my experience. In my suburban L.A. ward hands would pop up all over the classroom if anyone ever said that.

I'm also interested in the G. Albert Smith letter Lebowski quotes. Doesn't that seem to suggest that the notion "When the prophet speaks, the thinking is done," is not the church's teaching? Sure, there are people sprinkled around the church who will say that, but it's a silly statement all by itself.

[creekster]

I'm also interested in the G. Albert Smith letter Lebowski quotes. Doesn't that seem to suggest that the notion "When the prophet speaks, the thinking is done," is not the church's teaching? Sure, there are people sprinkled around the church who will say that, but it's a silly statement all by itself.

Even N. Eldon Tanner qualified it.

[Jeff Lebowski]

No, I see it here, and UtahDan and I have occasionally teased BYU fans by saying "When the Bronco speaks the thinking has been done." But I do not recall hearing the phrase "When the prophet speaks, the thinking is done," actually taught anywhere. That's just my experience. In my suburban L.A. ward hands would pop up all over the classroom if anyone ever said that.

I'm also interested in the G. Albert Smith letter Lebowski quotes. Doesn't that seem to suggest that the notion "When the prophet speaks, the thinking is done," is not the church's teaching? Sure, there are people sprinkled around the church who will say that, but it's a silly statement all by itself.

I would say that ETB's talk on following the prophet expressed a similar sentiment (given at a BYU fireside, not GC). I was encouraged to learn recently that SWK privately expressed his dismay with the talk to ETB after he gave it. Interestingly, the ETB talk was used as a basis for a talk by a seventy in the most recent GC.

[LA Ute]

Even N. Eldon Tanner qualified it.

That's the way it looks to me.

[SloanHater]

Would you have a problem disobeying if it was a horrible idea?

This is your problem. You think you can define what a horrible idea is or isn't.

I tend to follow the advice of d&c 121:36,37.

[cowboy]

I would say that ETB's talk on following the prophet expressed a similar sentiment (given at a BYU fireside, not GC). I was encouraged to learn recently that SWK privately expressed his dismay with the talk to ETB after he gave it. Interestingly, the ETB talk was used as a basis for a talk by a seventy in the most recent GC.

I'm curious, do consider "the debate is over" to have the same meaning as "the thinking is done?"

[Jeff Lebowski]

I'm curious, do consider "the debate is over" to have the same meaning as "the thinking is done?"

Not exactly, but I think the basic message is the same.

[grapevine]

In teachings of GBH I think Gordon said something to the effect you can disagree with policies about being disagreeable. As far as thinking been done. When Ricks became BYUI and decided to disband Intercollegiate athletics many people were not happy about that. Myself included. I wish they would come back. Hal I think was main one that put the new activity thing together though Gordon decided to make it a four year school. He asked Hal's opinion and Hal gave pro's and cons. There is a devotional at the byui site you can read Hals talk on that. Was surprised Ricks would be a four year school and there would be a temple in Rexburg.

But my Book of Mormon teacher Lori Woodland was womens bball coach and in talk said when prophet speaks debate is over. She the bball coach supported prophet 100 percent. As did vball coach Joanne Reeves. I mentioned not supporting the school and someone said you don't support the prophet. Cost will keep sports out but is one thing I did not like about change.

Todd as a Seventy gave a great talk sense of sacred and said when we talk aabout insignificant things such as earrings, tatoos and piercings, said it does matter. And dress and grooming it is inside counts what we wear tells us what is on the inside. And either rebellion or we don't get it. So grooming does matter.

In strength of youth says not to adopt extreme standards. Our sp showed us ensign and said good to look like brethern. Told of people in tr interview that took out second earrings and decades old mustaches that came off. Seems in many areas a push to get all facial hair off people. Particularly bishopric and High Councilman as many shave when they receive those callings.

I wonder if a GA is allowed to grow facial hair. I doubt they even think about it. Interesting one ga told stake exec secretary with goatee don't let the Puritans get to you. Next one said shave it. He is going ga shopping. Facial hair does not keep you out of temple as patron. Does as worker though. Beards keep you out of church schools and church employment. Mustaches don't though.

In a fp message Hal mentioned that he took advice even when he did not agree with it and said something to effect treasure something than you will benefit from taking counsel. Paraphrasing not sure what ensign that is in.

Are people afraid of hearing what they don't want to hear. IF a local leader asks you to shave, wear a white shirt to church or other so called small thing when will you be damaged for obeying? Most seek the welfare of there members they are called without seeking to preside over.

[CardiacCoug]

These comments get to the heart of my question: How do you act upon counsel from leaders? Do you pray about everything they say or do you just listen and follow if you think it sounds like a good idea? If we're not willing to take most advice at face value, and follow it if possible, then why do we have leaders in the first place? Why doesn't He just have us do our own thing as the He dictates in our lives?

I like what Elder Eyring said here:

Sometimes we will receive counsel that we cannot understand or that seems not to apply to us, even after careful prayer and thought. Don't discard the counsel, but hold it close. If someone you trusted handed you what appeared to be nothing more than sand with the promise that it contained gold, you might wisely hold it in your hand awhile, shaking it gently. Every time I have done that with counsel from a prophet, after a time the gold flakes have begun to appear and I have been grateful.

If the leaders tell you to do something that makes sense, you do it. If they tell you to do something that doesn't make sense, a faithful Saint won't immediately dismiss it, but will contemplate the counsel and try to reconcile himself to it. He will maybe follow the counsel if it seems like it's not harmful, even if he doesn't see the benefit.

But I believe that it is the definite responsibility of a Church member to NOT follow counsel that he believes in his heart is against God's will.

http://lds.org/conference/talk/displ...-64-11,00.html

[BlueHair]

This is your problem. You think you can define what a horrible idea is or isn't.

I tend to follow the advice of d&c 121:36,37.

I'm feel sorry for you if you think only leaders know what good or bad ideas are. You are probably one of those guys that bugs the Bishop with every trivial decision because you are unable to discern anything for yourself and need constant approval and reassurance. "Bishop do you think I need a haircut? What are your feelings on pinstripe shirts? Technically it's a white shirt, but do the stripes make it inappropriate? Do you think it's okay to grow a mustache? Is it okay to buy gas on Sunday? Is green tea against the Word of Wisdom?" Your poor Bishop.

I knew it was a horrible idea for my wife's grandparents to invest $250,000 with their Stake President only to see it disappear a few weeks later. It looked fishy, but they were convinced because of his calling. God called him so he must be a righteous man and would never rip them off.

D & C 121:36-37 confirms my viewpoint.

[grapevine]

We are not supposed to shop on Sunday. Gas you can do it with debit card so may not have to go in. Some of Jesus's apostles took corn on the sabbath. Is it ok to buy candy from convenient store on Sunday?Some things are timely.

Tithing, sabbath observance, Alcohol and tobaco effect our salvation. Obedience does too. It may not be coffee and tea. But will be obedience that our salvation. Mustaches I don't see any effect on salvation there myself.

As for investing church members fall prey to there schemes. Joseph Smith failed in Kirtland bank when the church was a society. But investing because it is your stake president now that may be using leadership position for finacnial reward. In those cases an area seventy may need to be called. That is inappropriate.

Section 58 of being commanded says many things bishops get asked. One person asked sp if he needed to stay in church clothes all day Sunday. I teach correct principles they govern themselves. Dallin said in 99 conference somthing to effect a ss teacher does not tell someone what a full tithing or sabbath observance is. Bishops don't need to be asked every trivial thing.

Missionaries can't grow mustaches and need frequent haircuts. Gordon suggested stay groomed that way after. But some things are our call and don't need to ask bishop.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

I'm feel sorry for you if you think only leaders know what good or bad ideas are. You are probably one of those guys that bugs the Bishop with every trivial decision because you are unable to discern anything for yourself and need constant approval and reassurance. "Bishop do you think I need a haircut? What are your feelings on pinstripe shirts? Technically it's a white shirt, but do the stripes make it inappropriate? Do you think it's okay to grow a mustache? Is it okay to buy gas on Sunday? Is green tea against the Word of Wisdom?" Your poor Bishop.

D & C 121:36-37 confirms my viewpoint.

Plus Monson seems to like Jerry Sloan. Double whammy.

[Sleeping in EQ]

The Improvement Era published this during the Reed Smoot hearings:

There is nothing in the doctrines of the Church which makes it necessary to believe that [men are constantly under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit] even...men who are high officials of the Church. When we consider the imperfections of men, their passions and prejudices, that mar the Spirit of God in them, happy is the man who can occasionally ascend to the spiritual heights of inspiration and commune with God!...

We should recognize the fact that we do many things by our own uninpired intelligence for the issues of which we are ourselves responsible....He will help men at need, but I think it improper to assign every word and every act of a man to an inspiration from the Lord....Hence, I think it a reasonable conclusion to say that constant, never-varying inspiration is not a factor in the administration of the Church; not even good men, no, not even though they be prophets or other high officials of the Church, are at all times and in all things inspired of God. It is only occasionally, and at need, that God comes to their aid.

That there have been unwise things done in the Church by good men, men susceptible at time to the inspiration of the Spirit of God, we may not question. Many instances in the history of the Church, through three quarters of a century, prove it, and it would be a solecism to say that God was the author of those unwise, not to say positively foolish, things that have been done. For these things men must stand responsible, not God.

It is well nigh as dangerous to claim too much for the inspiration of God, in the affairs of men, as it is to claim too little. By the first, men are led into superstition, and into blasphemy accrediting their own imperfect actions, their blunders, possibly even their sins, to God; and by the second, they are apt to altogether eliminate the influence of God from human affairs; I pause in doubt as to which conclusion would be the worse.

B.H. Roberts, Improvement Era, p. 365-366

[RobinFinderson]

If you believe that there is a God, who is all knowing and all powerful, is it too much of a stretch to also believe that there may be times (just sometimes) when He can see that a path leads to a bad outcome for us, but isn't necessarily able to help us understand what that outcome is?

With my own kids there have been times when - depending on their maturity and understanding - I have tried to cause them to do certain things because I had "been there and done that" and KNEW the outcome of the path they were taking. I couldn't always explain it to them or they didn't always understand what I was trying to explain. But that didn't mean that I didn't know what was best for them.

I think we are talking about two different things. I am happy to concede that, given that there is a God that is omnipotent and omniscient, said being might know that some paths that we would be inclined to take would lead to bad outcomes. I also think that your example of personal parenting is fitting in this situation.

Where we disagree is on the consequences of sin. What I'm saying is that God is cool, and therefore wouldn't want to surround Himself with a bunch of ass-kissers. From my recollection of LDS doctrine, the CK is going to be FULL of ass-kissers, but I don't think that can be right, since it contradicts the notion that God is perfect. Given that there actually exists a CK, I'm pretty sure I'm getting in.

[TripletDaddy]

SIEQ, I think I remember you sharing that quote before. It seems to be very relevant to this thread. Interesting find.