Your thoughts on church leaders

[wally]

I think those examples are less cloudy. You ask what harm can come from food storage...and you are correct, probably none.

Can you think of examples of counsel that could possibly cause harm if it were incorrect? This is more of an objectivity test than anything else.

Abraham and Isaac?

[scottie]

I wonder why you think the Lord expects us to follow incorrect counsel? Esp in light of admonitions to study things out in our own minds.

I wonder about that; when/where is that admonition given? In GC, the prophet doesn't say, "Study out these things we've just told you to know if they're true; if you don't find them to be true, you need to keep studying it out." When a FP letter is sent out and read over the pulpit saying that PowerPoint presos can no longer be used in church, there's no verbiage encouraging members to study it out, is there? It's an honest question (honest) -- what admonition are you talking about?

[jay santos]

jay you seem to be a pretty thoughtful guy to me. Why does it matter to you what "arm" of the church does what? I'm not trying to lay a trap, I just don't understand the distinction you are getting at.

Which would be more beneficial to the world? An organization that gives away all its excess every year and never grows and remains a small local church? Or an organization that has an aggressive business operation that grows from nothing to the equivalent of a $6B global organization, which has reserves enough to basically fund itself for perpetuity and can give a portion of that total value to the poor every year?

[ERCougar]

Because obedience is an important principle. To be clear, I don't think we are expected to disregard personal revelation, but I also think we are blessed for being obedient. Take my Sunday fireworks display for example. I think the Lord blessed those who stayed home for being obedient, regardless of whether He really inspired the stake president to counsel us to do so.

Obedience is important, but obedience to what--God or man? There is a distinction here, and it's not just hypothetical. Even if you assume that Church leaders speak the infallible word of God, they're speaking to the body of the Church, and only to individuals as they make up the body. Elder Oaks (I think) recently spoke to this when he asked us to remember that they don't outline exceptions to everything they say. To go off of your example, suppose there is fireman in your stake who was scheduled to work for the Sunday firework display, but then in an effort to strictly obey the SP's counsel that day, informed everyone that he could not and that they would need to cover his shift. Another example--my bishop just counseled everyone to read Jesus the Christ this past month. Not a bad piece of advice, but suppose my teenager is supposed to be reading D&C for seminary (she is). Which counsel to obey? Or what if someone feels strongly that they should be reading the BOM right now (the counsel of a higher ranking, but dead church leader--remember what BY said about dead vs living leaders...)?

It doesn't tak very long before one reaches the conclusion that you simply have to filter these counsels through your head before blindly obeying. And that's not at all a bad thing. The test laid out in Abraham applies not to obedience to man, but obedience to God,i.e. the Spirit. I see leaders' counsel as prompts to consider strongly by prayer and thoughtful reflection, and then to follow them as the Spirit prompts you to.

[cowboy]

I think those examples are less cloudy. You ask what harm can come from food storage...and you are correct, probably none.

Can you think of examples of counsel that could possibly cause harm if it were incorrect? This is more of an objectivity test than anything else.

Yes, but this is the last question I'll answer from you until you acknowledge my PM...and stop wearing a faux hawk. It's more of a test of your sincerity than anything else.

The obvious example is Prop 8. Certainly, if the Church was wrong in counseling members to commit resources to passing it, then the results could be harmful. However, as a somewhat orthodox member, I don't think any of us are entitled to know whether that counsel, or any counsel coming from general authorities is right or wrong for the body of the Church. Instead, I believe we are entitled to know if it is right or wrong for us.

In the case of Prop 8, assuming it was inspired (which I realize some here do not,) I think there were cases where the counsel still may have been wrong for individuals to the point that it would have caused harm to follow it. For example I'm sure there were situations where family relations would have been irreparably strained, etc.

[Indy Coug]

How much does the church give annually to the poor in local wards and branches via fast offerings? Based on my experience with a couple of different units, it has to be a vast sum of money.

[UtahDan]

Responsive to the question in the thread, I think that church leaders for the most part do their best, with good intentions, within the system they are in. I don't think they receive revelation or have visions in the sense that Joseph did, nor do I think any of them have claimed to since Section 138.

I guess the real question here is whether people think that they are prompted by the Holy Ghost to make decisions on a day to day basis. I think they believe they are just as most members of the church believe that God prompts them when they ask. I think the experiences of the average member and Thomas Monson in this regard are not distinguishable. I think GBH said as much before he died.

The most interesting part of this thread so far, though, is LA and wuap self identifying as Unitarians.

[TripletDaddy]

I wonder about that; when/where is that admonition given? In GC, the prophet doesn't say, "Study out these things we've just told you to know if they're true; if you don't find them to be true, you need to keep studying it out." When a FP letter is sent out and read over the pulpit saying that PowerPoint presos can no longer be used in church, there's no verbiage encouraging members to study it out, is there? It's an honest question (honest) -- what admonition are you talking about?

D&C 9:8

But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.

Joe keeps bugging the Lord for answers (via prayer) and the Lord, doing his best George Bailey, says, "what do I look like...a dictionary?"

[TripletDaddy]

Yes, but this is the last question I'll answer from you until you acknowledge my PM...and stop wearing a faux hawk. It's more of a test of your sincerity than anything else.

ha. sassy. I have several PMs in my inbox as a result of the HOLIDAY MOVIE CHALLENGE. Sorry, I will definitely read it and respond, as I value your opinion.

The obvious example is Prop 8. Certainly, if the Church was wrong in counseling members to commit resources to passing it, then the results could be harmful. However, as a somewhat orthodox member, I don't think any of us are entitled to know whether that counsel, or any counsel coming from general authorities is right or wrong for the body of the Church. Instead, I believe we are entitled to know if it is right or wrong for us.

Agreed 100%. I think we are pretty much on the same page, although we may reside on different sides of that page.

ps I dont have enough hair anymore for a faux hawk

[Indy Coug]

When a FP letter is sent out and read over the pulpit saying that PowerPoint presos can no longer be used in church, there's no verbiage encouraging members to study it out, is there?

I personally would find it humorous if someone found this to be the occasion they had to get personal revelation to get on board with this particular request.

[scottie]

D&C 9:8

But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.

Joe keeps bugging the Lord for answers (via prayer) and the Lord, doing his best George Bailey, says, "what do I look like...a dictionary?"

That's the Lord talking to Oliver Cowdery, right? Or is that a standing verse/section that applies to everyone in all scenarios? I'm sure you understand my question -- these admonitions, when and how are they communicated to members when counsel is given?

[Indy Coug]

That's the Lord talking to Oliver Cowdery, right? Or is that a standing verse/section that applies to everyone in all scenarios? I'm sure you understand my question -- these admonitions, when and how are they communicated to members when counsel is given?

It certainly has been commonly extrapolated to apply to everyone in every circumstance, but I'm not sure that's necessarily always the case.

[Surfah]

How much does the church give annually to the poor in local wards and branches via fast offerings? Based on my experience with a couple of different units, it has to be a vast sum of money.

I know our ward when I was clerk ran in the red receiving additional funds from the stake some months. And though our ward is small, I thought the sum to be quite large. I can imagine in other demographics that the number has to be as vast as you suggest.

[TripletDaddy]

It certainly has been commonly extrapolated to apply to everyone in every circumstance, but I'm not sure that's necessarily always the case.

My experience has been that in practicum, Mo Culture has an ex-post facto tolerance for "studying things out."

If the result of your own personal reflection and study falls in line with the mainstream, then you have exercised your agency well.

If the result of your own personal reflection and study falls out of line with the mainstream, then you may be on the road to apostasy.

In other words, like it or no, our culture (not necessarily our doctrine) seems to encourage a significant amount of blind faith for those who, as individuals, may feel differently than the mainstream on specific topics.

[Sullyute]

How much does the church give annually to the poor in local wards and branches via fast offerings? Based on my experience with a couple of different units, it has to be a vast sum of money.

I have an issue with the way this is always worded. It is really not the "Church" giving anything. It is the members of the church that are giving. Fast offerings are specifically given by members (and some non-members) to help the "poor". Poor can be a relative term based on where you are located. These funds would probably be given directly to other charitable organizations if not given directly to the Church for helping the poor.

Also how much of what the "Church" counts as giving in humanitarian service, comes from members sewing blankets, or making sanitation kits, or volunteering at the welfare farm, or serving a service mission? This is the members giving service that I would hope they would give to their neighbors and community even if they didn't belong to the Church.

I think it would be interesting to see how much the "Church" gives from Tithing (its money) to humanitarian causes.