Your thoughts on church leaders

[wally]

Is that the first time you've heard that phrase?

I have heard it sprinkled throughout this site, but if you would kindly enlighten me as to which obscure GA talk it refers to I'd sure appreciatchya.

[Jeff Lebowski]

So what does "When the prophet speaks, the thinking is done" mean?

I know of a few instances when this was addressed by top church leadership. The first time was in 1945 when it appeared in an article in the Improvement Era. Pres. George Albert Smith later denounced the article in a private letter to a minister in SLC who asked about it. In 1979, Elaine Cannon (YW general pres) repeated the phrase at a fireside. In the same year, N. Eldon Tanner quoted sister Cannon in a FP message in the Ensign. Unlike in 1945, the church did not denounce the statements, although the 1945 response was part of a private letter.*

I would suspect that a GC talk using that exact phrase would most likely get axed by correlation, but statements are made all the time that have the equivalent effect - such as ETB talk on following the prophet. And I have heard the phrase repeated several times by members in regard to Prop 8.

*EDIT: Solon was my original source this information.

[ERCougar]

I have heard it sprinkled throughout this site, but if you would kindly enlighten me as to which obscure GA talk it refers to I'd sure appreciatchya.

seriously? This website is the first time you've heard that phrase? It's totally new to you?

I sometimes wonder if I'm in a different church. If that is the case, the church that you all belong to is doing things right. JL and I will work on finding that one.

I'll admit that it's not heavily emphasized, but if I took a poll at church (at least, the wards/branches I've been a part of), I'd bet that 90% of the adults would be familiar with that phrase.

[Paperback Writer]

It seems to encourage pretty blind obedience. But (serious question) can you tell me where that is taught, and by whom? It's foreign to my experience.

Not foreign to mine at all. Earlier this month, a BP counselor taught our Deacon's quorum just that and used that quote. But the guy is very orthodox and means well. Suppose we are all products of our own experience. I had enough ineffective Bishops as a youth to form a different opinion

Stake leadership in my area has taught recently that priesthood keys = stewardship which means obedience for everyone else. My stake is more corporate than the Fortune 50 company I work for.

[Jeff Lebowski]

This is an old post from CG by Solon that I copied to my personal notes for future reference:

Here's a little more context for the Ward Teachers Message [adapted from a talk I gave in March 2007]:

The June 1945 Ward Teacher’s Message in the Improvement Era church magazine cautioned that Satan “wins a great victory when he can get members of the Church to speak out against their own leaders and ‘do their own thinking.’” Furthermore, the Message asserted, “When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan – it is God’s plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give direction, it should mark the end of controversy.” [Improvement Era, June 1945, p. 354.]

Six months after the publication of this Ward Teacher’s Message, in response to a query on the matter by a Salt Lake City Unitarian Reverend named Raymond Cope, President George Albert Smith wrote that the message had not been approved by the leaders of the church, that General Authorities had been embarrassed by the misstep and it “does not express the true position of the Church.” He continued, “Even to imply that members of the Church are not to do their own thinking is grossly to misrepresent the true ideal of the Church, which is that every individual must obtain for himself a testimony of the truth of the Gospel.” [Smith’s emphasis. See Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought 19, no. 1 (Spring 1986), pp. 35-39 for re-prints of the "Ward Teacher’s Message," Rev. Cope’s letter, and President Smith’s response.]

Brigham Young counseled against the fallacy of this mindset that blind obedience to inspired leaders absolves a person from individual responsibility. He said, I am “afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful that they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation”. [Discourses of Brigham Young, 2nd ed., s.v. “Priesthood.” Edited by John Widstoe (Salt Lake City: 1954), re-print of 1926 edition. This passage was cited by Rev. Cope in his letter to President Smith (see note above).]

Thirty years after President George Albert Smith’s letter to Revered Cope, the issue was revisited by Elaine Cannon, at the time the Young Women General President. In her talk at a special Women’s Fireside, held September 16, 1978, President Cannon informed the sisters of the church that, “When the prophet speaks, sisters, the debate is over.” [Printed in the November, 1978 Ensign, p. 108.] Several months later, in the August, 1979 Ensign’s “First Presidency Message,” President N. Eldon Tanner quoted President Cannon’s talk, and re-emphasized that, “When the prophet speaks . . . the debate is over.” [Ensign, August 1979, pg. 2.] Nevertheless, President Tanner nuanced President Cannon’s statement in much the same way that President Smith explained the Church’s stance on free agency and free thinking to Reverend Coles in 1945.

President Tanner explained that “[t]rue Latter-day Saints . . . know that the messages of the prophet have come from the Lord . . . and are not, as some would suggest, following blindly and acting without their own agency to speak and think for themselves. Through prayer to our Heavenly Father each of us can have the assurance that the course we choose has his divine approval.” [Ibidem]

The admonition that the prophet does the thinking for us, has never come from the prophet. For whatever reasons, people seem (in my opinion) all too willing to surrender their responsibility for self-determination and allow others to make their decisions for them. In both of these instances, members of the First Presidency corrected this misconception, although Tanner did so quite delicately.

I suggest that a prophet’s counsel is not the answer, but the roadmap to the answer. Once, when asked how he managed to govern so many people in Nauvoo, the Prophet Joseph Smith replied, “I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves." [Millenial Star 13:22, pg. 339. Cf. Journal of Discourses 10.39: http://journalofdiscourses.org/Vol_1...Dvol10-13.html ]

[Jeff Lebowski]

The original letter to reverend Cope:

The source of the undoctrinal notion that Church leaders do our thinking for us: the Ward Teachers Message of June 1945:
"When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan--it is God's plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give direction, it should mark the end of controversy. God works in no other way. To think otherwise, without immediate repentance, may cost one his faith, may destroy his testimony, and leave him a stranger to the kingdom of God."


And President George Albert Smith's reaction to the Ward Teachers Message of June 1945:


Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints
Office of the First Presidency
Salt Lake City, Utah

December 7, 1945

Dr. J. Raymond Cope
First Unitarian Society
13th East at 6th South Street
Salt Lake City, Utah

My dear Dr. Cope:
I have read with interest and deep concern your letter of November 16, 1945, in which you make special comment on "a short religious editorial prepared by one of your (our) leaders entitled "Sustaining the General Authorities of the Church'". You say that you read the message with amazement, and that you have since been disturbed because of its effect upon members of the Church.

I am gratified with the spirit of friendliness that pervades your letter, and thank you for having taken the time to write to me. The leaflet to which you refer, and from which you quote in your letter, was not "prepared" by "one of our leaders." However, one or more of them inadvertently permitted the paragraph to pass uncensored. By their so doing, not a few members of the Church have been upset in their feelings, and General Authorities have been embarrassed.

I am pleased to assure you that you are right in your attitude that the passage quoted does not express the true position of the Church. Even to imply that members of the Church are not to do their own thinking is grossly to misrepresent the true ideal of the Church, which is that every individual must obtain for himself a testimony of the truth of the Gospel, must, through the redemption of Jesus Christ, work out his own salvation, and is personally responsible to His Maker for his individual acts. The Lord Himself does not attempt coercion in His desire and effort to give peace and salvation to His children. He gives the principles of life and true progress, but leaves every person free to choose or to reject His teachings. This plan the Authorities of the Church try to follow.

The Prophet Joseph Smith once said: "I want liberty of thinking and believing as I please." This liberty he and his successors in the leadership of the Church have granted to every other member thereof. On one occasion in answer to the question by a prominent visitor how he governed his people, the Prophet answered: "I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves."

Again, as recorded in the History of the Church (Volume 5, page 498 [499] Joseph Smith said further: "If I esteem mankind to be in error, shall I bear them down? No. I will lift them up, and in their own way too, if I cannot persuade them my way is better; and I will not seek to compel any man to believe as I do, only by the force of reasoning, for truth will cut its own way."

I cite these few quotations, from many that might be given, merely to confirm your good and true opinion that the Church gives to every man his free agency, and admonishes him always to use the reason and good judgment with which God has blessed him.
In the advocacy of this principle leaders of the Church not only join congregations in singing but quote frequently the following:

"Know this, that every soul is free
To choose his life and what he'll be,
For this eternal truth is given
That God will force no man to heaven."
Again I thank you for your manifest friendliness and for your expressed willingness to cooperate in every way to establish good will and harmony among the people with whom we are jointly laboring to bring brotherhood and tolerance.

Faithfully yours,

Geo. Albert Smith [signed]

EDIT: I think my source on this was SIEQ.

[wally]

seriously? This website is the first time you've heard that phrase? It's totally new to you?

I sometimes wonder if I'm in a different church. If that is the case, the church that you all belong to is doing things right. JL and I will work on finding that one.

I'll admit that it's not heavily emphasized, but if I took a poll at church (at least, the wards/branches I've been a part of), I'd bet that 90% of the adults would be familiar with that phrase.

Yes seriously. I've heard it around, but only in this very context of discussion. I don't know who this quote is originally attributed to, I will google it now.......

Okay googled it and came up with this:

"When the Prophet speaks the debate is over".

N. Eldon Tanner, August Ensign 1979, pages 2-3

Since it was in the Ensign over 30 years agoI'm not sure how much it counts.

I know that if it is spoken over the pulpit at GC it is scripture, but what is the stature of limitations on the Ensign?? seems like 30 years would make sense? If so, I think that using this quote is no longer a valid debate point.

[Eddie]

I just wanted to be clear because it seemed like you were saying we will be blessed for obeying the Stake President's "peachy idea" even if it's not inspired.

I think if you follow the initial response, then there can be some "blessings" that come from following a Stake President's "peachy idea" - even if it isn't inspired.

I tend to believe that being a leader in the church is tough enough without having to explain absolutely everything to absolutely everybody. And I think there are some things that are done (and decisions that are made) that God truly isn't concerned with the details of - some of it just comes down to differences of opinion.

So a Stake President might make some decisions for his stake. Maybe they aren't necessarily divinely inspired. Does that mean you can't be blessed from supporting the man in his role as leader? If you are talking about developing certain qualities, then humility, empathy, etc. come to mind.

This isn't to say that a Stake President can't make bad decisions. It is to say that some of those "don't matter" decisions I might disagree with - but it is his area of responsibility so I'll do what I can to support the poor guy.

People who follow God's will, even if though they don't understand it and would prefer to do something else, are total brown-nosing suck-ups. Question: Do you really think that God wants to surround Himself with a bunch of ass-kissers? I think not.

If you believe that there is a God, who is all knowing and all powerful, is it too much of a stretch to also believe that there may be times (just sometimes) when He can see that a path leads to a bad outcome for us, but isn't necessarily able to help us understand what that outcome is?

With my own kids there have been times when - depending on their maturity and understanding - I have tried to cause them to do certain things because I had "been there and done that" and KNEW the outcome of the path they were taking. I couldn't always explain it to them or they didn't always understand what I was trying to explain. But that didn't mean that I didn't know what was best for them.



Finally - when it comes to following the prophet, I like the example of Nephi in the Book of Mormon. Lehi tells them Jerusalem is going to be destroyed and hauls them all off into the wilderness. Laman and Lemuel complain and are upset with what they are being asked to do. Nephi decides he wants to know for himself, so he prays about it and has his heart softened.

I think this is a great example. If you hear from a church leader and aren't sure what to do - pray about it, ponder it, find out for yourself.

I would add that I think there are many times when local leaders have to make decisions - just because they do - many of which don't really matter one way or the other. In those instances maybe if the answer isn't "that's wrong, don't do it", then that means we should support the leader in their efforts to do what they feel is best for those they lead.

[Solon]

that I copied to my personal notes for future reference:

This might be the best compliment I've ever received.

[Surfah]

This is an old post from CG by Solon that I copied to my personal notes for future reference:

So a woman is responsible for this terrible quote? Maybe SloanHater was right.

[Solon]

So a woman is responsible for this terrible quote? Maybe SloanHater was right.

Bro, you need to read the whole timeline.

[Jeff Lebowski]

This might be the best compliment I've ever received.

[Surfah]

Bro, you need to read the whole timeline.

I did. The prophet put it to rest and she brought it back.

[wally]

I did. The prophet put it to rest and she brought it back.

But President Tanner re-tweeted it the next year I think.

[Solon]

I did. The prophet put it to rest and she brought it back.

Gotcha. Sorry then.