Your thoughts on church leaders

[Non Sequitur]

I believe they talk to God but I do not believe God talks to them. When I look at the product objectively, I have a difficult time believing God is really in charge or that God micro-manages the LDS church.

One example is the $3-4B spent on a mall when there are 30,000 children starving to death every day tells me that God isn't speaking to any men in downtown SLC.

I certainly hope you're not spending your money on vacations, what with all the starving children and all.

[Moliere]

I certainly hope you're not spending your money on vacations, what with all the starving children and all.

As long as you are not a church then it's okay to not help the poor and needy.

[cowboy]

Do you think people think God makes apostles or prophets who make big mistakes die early?

Only the Prophet, everyone else can be released by their leader. I was more thinking being released from their calling than being struck by lightning.

This is something I'm always curious about. Why do we think of this as a positive thing or a sign of a dedicated priesthood leader?

I don't think the Lord is ever happy with leaders who put their calling before their family, but that's just my opinion. Also, I suppose it's a matter of who is needed the most. For example, I think missing dinner with the family to help comfort a grieving widow is different than missing your daughter play the lead in the school play so you can interview someone for a temple recommend renewal.

...I'm wondering what your purpose is in posting this. You conclude by stating that you presume to know how most will answer (which makes me wonder why you ask) but then admit that you might be wrong (which makes me wonder why it matters). Most importantly, you ask a bunch of personal questions yet offer none of your insights. Literally zero.

Just because I think I know doesn't mean I do, which is why I ask. It matters only because I'm curious. Sure, they're personal questions, but nobody is required to answer. I didn't have time to post my opinion, but here it is.

I believe our leaders are entitled to inspiration in all things, but they are here to learn by experience like the rest of us. I think the Lord expects us to arrive at our own answers and then ask if our solution is acceptable, thereby helping us learn by experience. In certain situations, He may feel more strongly about an issue, and give specific guidance, but for the most part I believe He wants us to figure things out for ourselves, and ask His permission to proceed. If it isn't way off base, I think He'll usually give permission through spiritual confirmation - kind of a "Go ahead and see how that works for you," type of an answer.

Recognizing inspiration takes practice, and most of all humility. I believe there are times when leaders make the wrong call because they are too convinced they are right to listen to the Spirit, but I don't think this happens often. More often, I suspect we think our leaders are wrong because we are too convinced we are right to listen to the Spirit.

I think this method of inspiration carries through clear to the prophet. Because the general authorities have much more practice at listening to the Spirit, I think they tend to lead and counsel better in terms of what the Lord would have them do, and I think the instances of them directing members in direct opposition to the Lord's will are extremely rare.

Regardless of whether our leaders are right or wrong, I think the Lord expects us to follow their counsel. Of course there are exceptions to every rule, and we ultimately need to decide for ourselves. Still, unless directions from our leaders would cause spiritual or physical harm to ourselves or others, I believe we are blessed for our obedience.

[wally]

My thoughts on church leaders don't vary much from the consensus here that the city creek center is a fiasco. ...Oh wait not this consensus the other one...

...the consensus that local leaders are just normal guys doing their best in the job they've been given but didn't ask for. I think that the more sincere and empathetic they become in their callings, the more good they are able to do.

I also think that the "full-time" leadership is in the tough position of defining and enforcing policy in order to create uniformity. It is easier in a PR sense (IMO) to be a front line manager implementing policy you didn't create and cannot influence, than the definer of policy. There are always, ALWAYS, flaws in policy.

I also think that, whether you personally believe in inspiration or not (I do), like each of us, church leaders cannot always escape their own failings and prejudices. I think one disservice we sometimes do them is placing them on a pedestal, and expecting some sort of perfection from them at all times. I find that when I view leadership as "regular Joes" doing their best, any frustrations I have evaporate and allow me to focus on the important stuff. Life's too short to focus on frustrations.

P.S. My other thought on Church leaders: "Better them than me."

[mUUser]

I don't think the Lord is ever happy with leaders who put their calling before their family, but that's just my opinion.

I don't know...when someone serves as a bishop, I just don't see how that is possible?....

Honestly, I look at my wonderfully dedicated bishop and shake my head.

He has 7 kids at home and little time for them. He attends this meeting, that interview, this training session, that event, this activity....baptisms, temple sessions, missionary splits, firesides, scout camps....and the list goes on and on and on. Even if he isn't required to do all these things, I think there's an expectation -- either from himself or others -- that he is. His wife tries to appear happy but almost always looks like she just faught a war -- disheveled & exhausted. The kids are raised in a herd because there's not enough adults around to give them individual attention or time -- the kind of time it takes to get kids from one activity to another.

Over the years I've seen this played out in different variations many, many times. Bishop is time consuming, and kids (and spouse) need dad's time....and lots of it. Makes me sad.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Regardless of whether our leaders are right or wrong, I think the Lord expects us to follow their counsel. Of course there are exceptions to every rule, and we ultimately need to decide for ourselves. Still, unless directions from our leaders would cause spiritual or physical harm to ourselves or others, I believe we are blessed for our obedience.

This would be interesting to flesh out a bit and maybe explore some examples. I am curious to see what kind of incorrect counsel wouldn't cause some degree of spiritual or physical harm. And I wonder if the Lord values obedience over personal revelation and agency.

[wally]

This would be interesting to flesh out a bit and maybe explore some examples. I am curious to see what kind of incorrect counsel wouldn't cause some degree of spiritual or physical harm. And I wonder if the Lord values obedience over personal revelation and agency.

[TripletDaddy]

Regardless of whether our leaders are right or wrong, I think the Lord expects us to follow their counsel. Of course there are exceptions to every rule, and we ultimately need to decide for ourselves. Still, unless directions from our leaders would cause spiritual or physical harm to ourselves or others, I believe we are blessed for our obedience.

I wonder why you think the Lord expects us to follow incorrect counsel? Esp in light of admonitions to study things out in our own minds.

[cowboy]

This would be interesting to flesh out a bit and maybe explore some examples. I am curious to see what kind of incorrect counsel wouldn't cause some degree of spiritual or physical harm.

Well, that's kind of like flock shooting, but I'll give you a couple off the top of my head. We were asked by our stake not to attend a local firework show on Sunday, and most people in the stake complied. I can't think of any spiritual or physical harm that following this counsel caused. We're asked by the brethren to have food storage. Again, this seems like harmless counsel whether right or wrong.

And I wonder if the Lord values obedience over personal revelation and agency.

If He doesn't value obedience, why should leaders counsel us at all? Why net just let us all figure things out for ourselves? Also, I don't see how the expectation of obedience has any effect on our agency. We are still free to obey or disobey.

[cowboy]

I wonder why you think the Lord expects us to follow incorrect counsel? Esp in light of admonitions to study things out in our own minds.

Because obedience is an important principle. To be clear, I don't think we are expected to disregard personal revelation, but I also think we are blessed for being obedient. Take my Sunday fireworks display for example. I think the Lord blessed those who stayed home for being obedient, regardless of whether He really inspired the stake president to counsel us to do so.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Well, that's kind of like flock shooting, but I'll give you a couple off the top of my head. We were asked by our stake not to attend a local firework show on Sunday, and most people in the stake complied. I can't think of any spiritual or physical harm that following this counsel caused. We're asked by the brethren to have food storage. Again, this seems like harmless counsel whether right or wrong.

OK. I guess I wouldn't classify either of those as clearly wrong. But I see the point you are making.

If He doesn't value obedience, why should leaders counsel us at all? Why net just let us all figure things out for ourselves? Also, I don't see how the expectation of obedience has any effect on our agency. We are still free to obey or disobey.

I must not have communicated my point. I would not argue that God doesn't value obedience. I think the question is whether God values obedience to counsel that is wrong and harmful. Does God expects us to apply any kind of filter via thought and personal revelation to the counsel we receive, or are we to simply obey everything from all of our leaders no matter the circumstance?

[UtahDan]

Lame argument. The church isn't sinking money into that mall. It's made by their business arm, and it's a profit maker. Now we can discuss whether or not it's a wise financial investment and whether or not the church uses the prophet to God communication tunnel to predict high returning investments, but it's lame to diss the church's charity by pointing to its business operations.

jay you seem to be a pretty thoughtful guy to me. Why does it matter to you what "arm" of the church does what? I'm not trying to lay a trap, I just don't understand the distinction you are getting at.

[cowboy]

OK. I guess I wouldn't classify either of those as clearly wrong. But I see the point you are making.

I'm not saying they are wrong, just saying that if we get upstairs and the Lord says "I didn't tell them to say that, they just came up with it themselves," that we'll still be blessed for obeying.

Does God expects us to apply any kind of filter via thought and personal revelation to the counsel we receive, or are we to simply obey everything from all of our leaders no matter the circumstance?

I guess everybody has their opinion, but I think I made my position clear. I don't think we are expected to obey if it will be harmful to ourselves or others. The only way we can determine this is through personal revelation.

I suppose it would be helpful to clarify "wrong." I think there is counsel that may be wrong for us individually, but not necessarily wrong for the church. This, I believe, is far more common than counsel that is just plain wrong all the way around. Regardless, I don't believe we are entitled to receive revelation about whether counsel and direction are wrong for the Church, just whether it is applicable to us.

[TripletDaddy]

Because obedience is an important principle. To be clear, I don't think we are expected to disregard personal revelation, but I also think we are blessed for being obedient. Take my Sunday fireworks display for example. I think the Lord blessed those who stayed home for being obedient, regardless of whether He really inspired the stake president to counsel us to do so.

I think those examples are less cloudy. You ask what harm can come from food storage...and you are correct, probably none.

Can you think of examples of counsel that could possibly cause harm if it were incorrect? This is more of an objectivity test than anything else.

[Surfah]

I think those examples are less cloudy. You ask what harm can come from food storage...and you are correct, probably none.

Can you think of examples of counsel that could possibly cause harm if it were incorrect? This is more of an objectivity test than anything else.

Dress up like Indians and slaughter the incoming party?