Has the raised bar been beneficial to missionary work?

[Green Monstah]

um... how exactly did this come to light?

"One of my APs".....

Uhuh.

[Portland Ute]

I was in a discussion with some Elders and the investigator basically said that he didnt know if he believed in God or Jesus. The missionaries challenged him to be baptized. wtf? Makes no sense.

I was in a discussion and my companion did this. I was like, "WTF are you hearing right now????"
I wanted to laugh out loud at him.

Anyway, I think a large part of social awkwardness comes not from the higher standard but from a huge tendency for kids to communicate via text/email/facebook.

Perhaps we should have the missionaries start texting the discussions to their investigators.

Kids in general these days seem more socially retarded. I am the Priest Quorum adviser in our ward. The main problem any of our priests is known to have had was pornography. The YM president and I joked that it would be refreshing and a relief, in a weird sort of way, to know that these kids were getting busy with girlfriends.

None of them date. They hang out. They text. They sit in the same car or room and don't say a word...they text. Then, they go home and whack off to internet porn.

I think that's the sad truth about why these kids are retards.

[Green Monstah]

I was in a discussion and my companion did this. I was like, "WTF are you hearing right now????"
I wanted to laugh out loud at him.

Anyway, I think a large part of social awkwardness comes not from the higher standard but from a huge tendency for kids to communicate via text/email/facebook.

Perhaps we should have the missionaries start texting the discussions to their investigators.

Kids in general these days seem more socially retarded. I am the Priest Quorum adviser in our ward. The main problem any of our priests is known to have had was pornography. The YM president and I joked that it would be refreshing and a relief, in a weird sort of way, to know that these kids were getting busy with girlfriends.

None of them date. They hang out. They text. They sit in the same car or room and don't say a word...they text. Then, they go home and whack off to internet porn.

I think that's the sad truth about why these kids are retards.

The early commitment is not a raising the bar issue...that's been around a long time.

I'm actually a little jealous of the Elders these days. I would have loved to be more "freestyle" in my lessons, but the pressure to teach discussions often led me to avoid addressing concerns or building testimony and instead I rammed a fourth discussion down their throat.

I don't get the whole texting thing, but you're right...my nephews and nieces don't talk to people, they just text and facebook.

[Portland Ute]

That's interesting.

I think the Commitment Pattern stuff that I remember from the mission was incredibly rude and condescending. The missionaries who would follow it too literally would have to be freaks:

I remember a conversation with an investigator when I went on splits that went something like this:

Elder: "Will you read these passages from the Book of Mormon and pray to ask Heavenly Father if they are true before our next visit?"

Investigator: "Sure, if I have time."

Elder: "Will you make the time and do it?"

Investigator: "Yeah, I should be able to do that."

Elder: "Will you commit to definitely do it?"

Investigator: "What is wrong with you? I said I'll do it if I can..."

Anyway, I have seen some incredibly rude and condescending behavior from missionaries toward both members and investigators over the years, before and after Raise The Bar.

If they try to pull that stuff on me (like asking me to refer a friend to them) and I say "Sure, I'll try" then that's my final answer and they better not press it with the rude and condescending attitude.

My wife and I loathe visiting temple square in SLC for a similar reason. The missionaries there inevitably corner you and figure out if you are a member or not. WHen they find out that you are, the hound you to get them referrals or commit to seeking out referrals.

I just really want to go sit and enjoy the peace and quiet and beauty of the square. The sisters there drive me nuts.

On the one hand, I know they have a job to do. However, the typical approach is less about being interested in the people they are talking to and letting the conversation take a natural turn towards referrals than it is about just getting a referral or a commitment to make a referral as quick as they can so they can move onto the next family from Utah or Davis County.

[Portland Ute]

The early commitment is not a raising the bar issue...that's been around a long time.



I don't get the whole texting thing, but you're right...my nephews and nieces don't talk to people, they just text and facebook.

No, I realize that the early commitment is not a part of raising the bar. However, I think that has become more of an issue with more socially retarded kids in the field. Few of them have the sense to apply the brakes in the commitment department. I have to say that I think it was companions that were the social retards that would bust out the inappropriately timed early commitment attempts. I think more social retards = more poorly timed early commitment attempts.

Along the lines of socializing, a year or two ago I actually offered ANY of the kids in my quorum a dinner at ANY restaurant of their choice IF they would just ask a girl out on a date. Every dime paid for by me. No, I would not accompany them.

Well, I knew nobody would get a date. I knew I'd never have to pay out a dinner. Nobody did. They were all too busy at home playing Halo on XBOX live with their "friends" or looking at internet porn and jerking off.

[CardiacCoug]

My wife and I loathe visiting temple square in SLC for a similar reason. The missionaries there inevitably corner you and figure out if you are a member or not. WHen they find out that you are, the hound you to get them referrals or commit to seeking out referrals.

I just really want to go sit and enjoy the peace and quiet and beauty of the square. The sisters there drive me nuts.

On the one hand, I know they have a job to do. However, the typical approach is less about being interested in the people they are talking to and letting the conversation take a natural turn towards referrals than it is about just getting a referral or a commitment to make a referral as quick as they can so they can move onto the next family from Utah or Davis County.

Yeah, I have seen that at Temple Square, too. They should absolutely just let the referral requests come (or not come) naturally within a conversation.

The best way for missionaries to get referrals isn't to constantly pester people for them -- it's to impress the members with how normal and cool they are. Nobody is going to refer a friend to the missionaries if the missionaries show that they are socially inept, condescending jerks.

[wuapinmon]

Nobody is going to refer a friend to the missionaries if the missionaries show that they are socially inept, condescending jerks.

This.

[BlueHair]

um... how exactly did this come to light?

We shared an apartment. One evening I heard a "clank, clank, clank" type of sound. The next morning I was telling my companion about it and he told me it was Elder E's watch. He always wore his watch unclasped. Anyway, every night he would head to the restroom and "clank, clank, clank". The mission president told us about the sister missionaries after he went home. He told us to be in the look-out for him because after going home he returned to the area to "visit" chicks he taught.

[Portland Ute]

The best way for missionaries to get referrals isn't to constantly pester people for them -- it's to impress the members with how normal and cool they are. Nobody is going to refer a friend to the missionaries if the missionaries show that they are socially inept, condescending jerks.

[LA Ute]

When I hear talk of the "higher bar" I always think of Alma the younger and the sons of Mosiah, who were "the vilest of sinners" but became some of the greatest missionaries - if not the greatest - ever. In today's world they would not have been able to serve. Just something to think about.

My first thought when I read the first post was something along the same lines as your post, KL. The young men with the best social skills are also the most likely to have been sexually active.

My mind rebels at this thought, and I disagree because the young LDS men I know with great social skills are not like that (unless they are all also very good liars). But neither your position nor mine is provable, I guess.

[Portland Ute]

When I hear talk of the "higher bar" I always think of Alma the younger and the sons of Mosiah, who were "the vilest of sinners" but became some of the greatest missionaries - if not the greatest - ever. In today's world they would not have been able to serve. Just something to think about.

I was thinking of Saul of Tarsus, but the same concept.

[Moliere]

I think we are all missing the point. Missionaries were socially inept (for the most part) prior to raising the bar and they will continue to be socially inept into the future so long as 19 year old kids are sent throughout the world to preach the Gospel. These are 19 year old kids, not some seasoned person with life experience. Most of the missionaries in the early years of the church were adults with a wife and kids and I can guarantee you they were much more effective socially then the kid who just graduate from high school.

Raising the bar will not automatically make a 19 year old kid into an outstanding teacher or missionary. That will never happen as long as the missionaries are young adults or old kids. In fact, I'm more convinced that raising the bar was mostly done to lighten the load on an already swamped mission president.

[Moliere]

In fact, by not allowing youth to go on mission following certain transgressions, the brethren are making the point very, very clear that a mission is NOT required for salvation. It is a privilege for a time and place but if you miss it, you move on.

I like your point gibbonator, but if you really think the brethren are making that point, they might want to update their APH manuals (and not just for this one lesson).

[Pheidippides]

That's interesting.

I think the Commitment Pattern stuff that I remember from the mission was incredibly rude and condescending. The missionaries who would follow it too literally would have to be freaks:

I remember a conversation with an investigator when I went on splits that went something like this:

Elder: "Will you read these passages from the Book of Mormon and pray to ask Heavenly Father if they are true before our next visit?"

Investigator: "Sure, if I have time."

Elder: "Will you make the time and do it?"

Investigator: "Yeah, I should be able to do that."

Elder: "Will you commit to definitely do it?"

Investigator: "What is wrong with you? I said I'll do it if I can..."

Anyway, I have seen some incredibly rude and condescending behavior from missionaries toward both members and investigators over the years, before and after Raise The Bar.

If they try to pull that stuff on me (like asking me to refer a friend to them) and I say "Sure, I'll try" then that's my final answer and they better not press it with the rude and condescending attitude.

that was part of why I was laughing - some of the stuff was precisely commitment pattern nonsense, which I believed to be revealed truth in the same way i believe in salvation only through the flying spaghetti monster.

I'm like you - I have very little tolerance for missionaries who are rude and silly. I've been in ward council before when they've chastised us for not doing X or Y - way to gain our trust, guys! I've had them stop by at inopportune times and refused to let them in (it was literally a "thanks for stopping by, but I don't have time now" rejection).

The funny thing is that my co-worker is quite studious and is the sort of guy I thought might be interested before I found out that he was taking the discussions. The really funny thing is that he asked me to give him some info to trip up the Elders as a prank. I had to tell him I'd think of something to give him later because I immediately started thinking of things like Adam-God lectures at the veil, blood atonement, council of 50, etc.

[DrumNFeather]

In one of my last wards (in my third in a year) I served as the WML for about two years. I think the problems we see with the missionaries are a microcosm of the problems that reside in many wards. Much like with the missionaries, you have some ward members that are absolutely dynimite and others that kind of ho hum their way through their respective callings, with reliability being optional at best. This is a pattern I witnessed time and time again with the missionaries.

There is no "best practice" approach perse, but when you have a membership of x amount and a certain percentage of those people are socially awkward and unreliable in the ward setting, it's not surprisng that of those that serve missions, many are not equipped to handle situations that fall outside the realm of the scenarios they're taught in the MTC or in a Zone Conference.

Much like a telemarketer, or door-to-door salesmen (as goat suggests) many missionaries don't know what to do when someone goes off script (member or non member).

I didn't enjoy much about the WML calling, but it did allow me to get to know the Elders in a way that you just don't get to when you are joe member because you don't have the time and frankly don't care. We had one missionary in particular who "offended" 3/4 of the ward, literally, and the support for the missionaries vanished, seemingly overnight. One day he asked me why the support in our ward sucked. It was a great teaching opportunity for him and his equally socially awkward companion. Things never got repaired with that Elder and the ward, and he soon moved on to push buttons in other wards, but I think he learned at least a little. It was then that I realized that if nothing else, I can help these Elders understand how people think and react given certain circumstances. I don't believe it is taught much these days and it needs to be. So when we would meet, I would focus more on how they could better interact with the Bishop, RS President and specific members they were looking to for assistance/guidance.

These missionaries today face a very tall order and need to be equipped with a well-rounded set of skills for teaching, talking, and just being a part of a ward in general. I think if there were a bit more focus on honest BRT, as there was in the past, we would see the Elders be invited into our homes and supported better, rather than avoided, which is what seems to happen more often than not.