Has the raised bar been beneficial to missionary work?

[Moliere]

I think she has a point. I'll admit that I have a real problem with the whole raising the bar thing, so I am biased, but some of the best missionaries in my mission had very sordid pasts. But they had charisma, and people skills, and people wanted to be around them. More than anything, though, they appreciated the atonement in a way that many did not, and investigators could sense it.

This reminds me of God's Army 2 (which I enjoyed) with the symbolism of the book Jesus the Christ and the difference between the two elders.

While I understand why the bar has been raised, and I believe that the brethren are inspired, I have great concerns over the message that it sends to youth. We have a tremendous challenge trying to get our youth to overcome guilt and forgive themselves anyway, and I fear that telling them that they can't go on a mission if they are guilty of certain transgressions sends the message that forgiveness is not obtainable.

This perpetuates the all-too-common notion that we are saved only if we don't make mistakes. Evangelicals take a lot of flak from Mormons for their saved by grace platform, but I think we tend to go to far the other way. We'll make mistakes, many of them intentional, and we can be forgiven. That's a message that we overlook far too often.

This guilt is built into the Aaronic PH manuals. Here is one example of a diagram that one is supposed to draw on the board during one of the lessons.



Thankfully my ward has their own YM correlation committee that changes the lesson material from time to time

[Pheidippides]

Thankfully my ward has their own YM correlation committee that changes the lesson material from time to time

Lol. This reminds me of a conversation I had over thanksgiving dinner. Background: the bishopric asked me to sub for gospel doctrine while they found a teacher. I did am had a great time teaching. It was on Jeremiah and I spent a lot of time researching history, reading several translations of the bible portions in question, doing some literary comparisons, and generally having a good time.

The HPGL and one of the Bishopric were at my house for thanksgiving and both complemented me on the lesson, asking how I prepare. I told them that my general approach with all church lessons is to look at the manual to figure out what the topic is. And then I toss the manual aside and go my own way. I think it shocked one but not the other, as he has known me for years.

[Donuthole]

This reminds me of God's Army 2 (which I enjoyed) with the symbolism of the book Jesus the Christ and the difference between the two elders.



This guilt is built into the Aaronic PH manuals. Here is one example of a diagram that one is supposed to draw on the board during one of the lessons.



Thankfully my ward has their own YM correlation committee that changes the lesson material from time to time

I taught that lesson just a few weeks ago. When I was preparing, I looked at that diagram and thought WTF? So rather than draw a diagram which makes it look like seminary and institute attendance and a mission are necessary steps to eternal marriage and salvation, i opted for having the young men state good choices and possible positive consequences from those choices. It ended up being a pretty effective lesson.

[wuapinmon]

I think she has a point. I'll admit that I have a real problem with the whole raising the bar thing, so I am biased, but some of the best missionaries in my mission had very sordid pasts. But they had charisma, and people skills, and people wanted to be around them. More than anything, though, they appreciated the atonement in a way that many did not, and investigators could sense it.

While I understand why the bar has been raised, and I believe that the brethren are inspired, I have great concerns over the message that it sends to youth. We have a tremendous challenge trying to get our youth to overcome guilt and forgive themselves anyway, and I fear that telling them that they can't go on a mission if they are guilty of certain transgressions sends the message that forgiveness is not obtainable.

This perpetuates the all-too-common notion that we are saved only if we don't make mistakes. Evangelicals take a lot of flak from Mormons for their saved by grace platform, but I think we tend to go to far the other way. We'll make mistakes, many of them intentional, and we can be forgiven. That's a message that we overlook far too often.

I'm fairly certain that one of my cousin's kids went and had sex with a couple of different people so that he could get relief from the crushing pressure he felt to serve a mission. Not that that was the only reason, but he was the Anointed One of his generation, and I think he got tired of it.

[creekster]

I'm fairly certain that one of my cousin's kids went and had sex with a couple of different people so that he could get relief from the crushing pressure he felt to serve a mission. Not that that was the only reason, but he was the Anointed One of his generation, and I think he got tired of it.

and therefore?

[cowboy]

No one says they can't be forgiven. If your leaders are preaching the message in that way, they shouldn't. Moreover, the bar being raised is still subject to great variation from locality to locality. You can see it if you look. The key difference is that you are not seeing projects go to the mission field. The project part takes place at home, not in the field. The message that children take from these lessons is going to depend largely on the message that family, friends and leaders leave with them. Moreover, you seem to assume that the large majority of kids are going to be in a position to worry about not being allowed to go on a mission. That is not at all consistent with my experience, and I live in an area that has great social and practical obstacles for youth to stay faithful.

The premise of the 'point' (which was not qualified or conditioned at all) that the large bulk of those who are charismatic and inspiring are below the bar while the large bulk of those who are boring and socially awkward are above it is not at all borne out in my experience. No one is prevented from going on a mission due to their charisma. They are instead encouraged to avoid losing the right to go on a mission and use their charisma in a positive way. Within my experience the charismatic missionaries who were successful are those who overcame their sordid past effectively. I also encountered and knew of very social and charismatic missionaries who were NOT effective, despite their roguish charms. The latter group is no longer found (at least not often) in the field. As has been noted, the latter category converted to themselves, not to the Gospel. That sort of conversion helps no one.

Simply put, there are two ideas here:

1. Current teaching techniques are less effective.

2. Raised bar means we no longer have charismatic missionaries.

I disagree strongly with both of these, as I have witnessed highly effective teaching under the current system by a number of missionaries and I have known numerous effective and charismatic missionaries as well.

Leaders don't have to teach it. We teach our daughters to marry a returned missionary and our sons to serve an honorable mission. We tell them that returned missionaries make better fathers, husbands, and leaders. So when we tell them that they can't serve missions because of mistakes that they made before they were old enough to go to college, this is what they hear: "No righteous girl will ever want to marry you, and you'll never reach your full potential as a father, husband, or leader." Not exactly congruent with "and I the Lord remember them no more."

I don't have a big problem with the teaching structure, and I think it can be just as effective as the discussions. The discussions were certainly a recipe for disaster in the wrong hands. My point was much less about charisma than it was about the ability to convey a deep and personal appreciation for the atonement.

... More than anything, though, they appreciated the atonement in a way that many did not, and investigators could sense it...

Edit: I want to be clear that I'm not arguing that all missionaries would be better if they violated the law of chastity before they left. I'm just saying that the truly repentant can use their experience to empathize with their investigators.

[creekster]

Leaders don't have to teach it. We teach our daughters to marry a returned missionary and our sons to serve an honorable mission. We tell them that returned missionaries make better fathers, husbands, and leaders. So when we tell them that they can't serve missions because of mistakes that they made before they were old enough to go to college, this is what they hear: "No righteous girl will ever want to marry you, and you'll never reach your full potential as a father, husband, or leader." Not exactly congruent with "and I the Lord remember them no more."

Then leaders shouldn't allow it. I have had this very discussion with my own children and with other youth over the years. In fact, by not allowing youth to go on mission following certain transgressions, the brethren are making the point very, very clear that a mission is NOT required for salvation. It is a privilege for a time and place but if you miss it, you move on. Surely you as a loving parent would make this point clear rather than let your children wallow in self criticism unnecessarily? While I see your concern, I really don't think it is a necessary or even an important outcome of the raised bar approach.

My point was much less about charisma than it was about the ability to convey a deep and personal appreciation for the atonement.

I also reject this premise. Do you actually believe that the only effective teachers of the importance and power of the atonement are those few missionaries who have committed serious sins prior to their missions? The LAST thing those missionaries should be doing is talking about their prior sins and if they don't, then their teaching is only going to be effective at a spiritual level through the spirit, just like anyone else. Are you suggesting that those who have sinned can promote a spiritual environment while teaching more effectively than those who haven't? Certaoinly sinners who feel cleansed can have a personal appreciation for the ateonment, but such appreciation is neither a requirement nor a necessary element for being a good missionary.

EDIT: I didnt see your edit above before posting;

[MarkGrace]

The elders in our ward are driving me crazy. Abso-freaking-lutely crazy. My wife can't stand one of the elders in the companionship, and tells me she hates him pretty much after every interaction she has with him. He also set off most of our ward with some homophobic comments at PEC.

I doubt this has anything to do with raising the bar, the kid is just lacking in social grace.

[statman]

and therefore?

A WITCH!

[Paperback Writer]

and therefore? ... A WITCH!

LOL. We shall use the largest scale...bring the duck.

[BlueHair]

One of my APs was a chronic masturbator and made out with several sister missionaries. He was a legend. Practically everyone he taught was eventually baptized. I have to agree with Goat, it's a sales job.

[CardiacCoug]

I'm seeing some issues in my area as well. A coworker is taking the discussions and he's a genuine honest truth seeker type. He will convert when/if he feels moved in his heart, which is the right answer.

He was recently complaining to me that the elders sort of talk down to him (he is highly educated) when they give him assignments, they visit at very bad times (when he is watching football), they stay too long, and they put too much pressure on him to convert now. But he's having a hard time telling them to back off because they are otherwise so damned nice.

That's interesting.

I think the Commitment Pattern stuff that I remember from the mission was incredibly rude and condescending. The missionaries who would follow it too literally would have to be freaks:

I remember a conversation with an investigator when I went on splits that went something like this:

Elder: "Will you read these passages from the Book of Mormon and pray to ask Heavenly Father if they are true before our next visit?"

Investigator: "Sure, if I have time."

Elder: "Will you make the time and do it?"

Investigator: "Yeah, I should be able to do that."

Elder: "Will you commit to definitely do it?"

Investigator: "What is wrong with you? I said I'll do it if I can..."

Anyway, I have seen some incredibly rude and condescending behavior from missionaries toward both members and investigators over the years, before and after Raise The Bar.

If they try to pull that stuff on me (like asking me to refer a friend to them) and I say "Sure, I'll try" then that's my final answer and they better not press it with the rude and condescending attitude.

[Green Monstah]

With a few notable exceptions, the missionaries I've been around for the last five years have been substandard in one or more ways.

Some are shy (but the best missionary I've seen lately was extremely shy); but mostly they're just grossly uninformed and poor at teaching.

[Commando]

One of my APs was a chronic masturbator and made out with several sister missionaries. He was a legend. Practically everyone he taught was eventually baptized. I have to agree with Goat, it's a sales job.

um... how exactly did this come to light?

[RobinFinderson]

I've observed this for a while. "Raising the Bar" seems to mean passing a morals test. Those really effective missionaries--the ones with natural leadership and charisma and a wild streak--those are the missionaries that people want to be around. Those are the ones that draw investigators in with the force of their personality. Unfortunately, the ones who get missionary calls are the ones who have stayed home and watched TV for 18 years, and played Doom and Call of Duty and are about as exciting as paint. They don't have creativity or a sense of service, but they are obedient and they do follow the rules.

My first thought when I read the first post was something along the same lines as your post, KL. The young men with the best social skills are also the most likely to have been sexually active.