13 Articles of Healthy Chastity

[TheBYUGuy]

She is in RS and they have the lesson on "Getting pregnant out of wedlock, responsible and only fair thing to the child is to give it up for Adoption" lesson. She feels extreme guilt because according to the lesson "she has ruined TK1's life and she would have been better being raised by someone else".

She got up and walked out of the lesson. To this day, when the lesson comes up in RS she gets up and walks out. It is 18 years later and she is still made to feel guilty.

She refused to teach the lesson in YW, and that was part of the reason she asked out of the calling. She wasn't going to have any part of heaping any extra correlated guilt onto the YW, our daughters included.

Honestly, I've never heard of a correlated teaching that a single mother's responsibility is to give her child up for adoption. Is it only in the RS and YW manuals, or have I just not paid attention?

[Surfah]

I really don't know much about church discipline. I thought it was more to the discretion of the bishop.

I was responding to DNF who was talking about how unlikely it would be for a bishop or YW leader to say "I told you so" after getting raped. I agree. I don't think most bishops or YW leaders would say that.

However, I do think that it is not uncommon for YW who are raped or otherwise sexually-abused to feel guilty, blame themselves and maybe even go through the repentance process with a bishop. This is why sexual abuse should be addressed during these chastity lessons--for both the YW and YM. And why modesty should not be framed in terms of "if you wear that, you're basically asking for it."

I agree. But what you describe isn't confined to women in the Church except for perhaps the confession part.

And yes modesty has to be framed delicately. What would you think about saying something like "if you wear that you may attract the attention of someone you don't want?"

[TripletDaddy]

You mean uptight and ineffective?

Nah.

When I'm around people wish I was gone but when I'm gone everyone notices.

[SuperGabers]

Nah.

When I'm around people wish I was gone but when I'm gone everyone notices.

When were you gone?

[Surfah]

I am very okay with the lesson of "if you dress in this way you are more likely to be viewed as this sort of person". That's just the way things are. That "way" doesn't necessarily include temple garment modesty and my wife and are agreed that we believe that she would dress a bit differently but for aforementioned underwear.

A different issue is the "if you dress like this, you are asking for it" talk. This is when are talking about YM controlling themselves to be clear. At a minimum we are insinuating that girls somehow have some responsibility for young Brigham skipping off to the bathroom an hoping everybody effing knocks. At worst we are saying that it's her fault if she gets date (or otherwise) raped. Both are sad statements that I would call sexist but for the fact that they are insulting to both genders.

I think the real problem is that people mean to say the former and say the latter. Or say the latter and don't understand the implications.

I am very nervous about dealing with this when my daughter hits YW. And my sons when they hit YM as well, as I remember the religious instruction I received on the matter and it was little better. Except for one bishop who was clear that sex was awesome and we should just wait a bit for the awesomeness.

I agree with this.

[TripletDaddy]

When were you gone?

Very mean.

[Babs]

Very mean.

Mean as spit.

[marsupial]

I agree. But what you describe isn't confined to women in the Church except for perhaps the confession part.

And yes modesty has to be framed delicately. What would you think about saying something like "if you wear that you may attract the attention of someone you don't want?"

No, of course not. But we spend a lot of time talking about chastity with our youth and we need to take some time to talk about abuse, how to recognize it and what to do if it happens. Also, this "she was asking for it," attitude is prevalent in circles outside of the church too.

In all honesty, I am not totally on board with the modesty lessons period. I don't understand why I can't wear sleeveless dresses or skirts more than a few centimeters about my knee. And living in this hot and humid climate, a nice strappy sundress is not immodest, it's a necessity! Obviously, my garments keep me from wearing what I want. But I wouldn't make my daughter abide by the garment dress code. She can wear shorts and tank tops and sundresses when the weather and activities make such outfits appropriate.

[Mrs. Funk]

No, of course not. But we spend a lot of time talking about chastity with our youth and we need to take some time to talk about abuse, how to recognize it and what to do if it happens. Also, this "she was asking for it," attitude is prevalent in circles outside of the church too.

In all honesty, I am not totally on board with the modesty lessons period. I don't understand why I can't wear sleeveless dresses or skirts more than a few centimeters about my knee. And living in this hot and humid climate, a nice strappy sundress is not immodest, it's a necessity! Obviously, my garments keep me from wearing what I want. But I wouldn't make my daughter abide by the garment dress code. She can wear shorts and tank tops and sundresses when the weather and activities make such outfits appropriate.

Right on all accounts. Also, I don't think modesty is a list of "appropriate" clothing, or at least it shouldn't be taught that way. For the most part, it seems to be.

[RC Vikings]

And living in this hot and humid climate, a nice strappy sundress is not immodest, it's a necessity!

I fully support you with this.

[Mrs. Funk]

I fully support you with this.

I'm assuming that would make you a strapless bra to DDD's sports bra?

[Pheidippides]

No, of course not. But we spend a lot of time talking about chastity with our youth and we need to take some time to talk about abuse, how to recognize it and what to do if it happens. Also, this "she was asking for it," attitude is prevalent in circles outside of the church too.

In all honesty, I am not totally on board with the modesty lessons period. I don't understand why I can't wear sleeveless dresses or skirts more than a few centimeters about my knee. And living in this hot and humid climate, a nice strappy sundress is not immodest, it's a necessity! Obviously, my garments keep me from wearing what I want. But I wouldn't make my daughter abide by the garment dress code. She can wear shorts and tank tops and sundresses when the weather and activities make such outfits appropriate.

SHW and I subscribe to your modesty theory and I have in fact already had discussions with my daughter about it. She - at the age of nine - has already come back from church with modesty concepts we disagree with, along the lines of your list of clothes. In addition to all of the other things it does, it can teach our kids that neighbors who don't wear garment-appropriate clothes and yet are appropriately dressed are immodest and sinful by implication. That is a message I would very much like to avoid having to counter again.

[TripletDaddy]

I'm assuming that would make you a strapless bra to DDD's sports bra?

I was speaking metaphorically! People, I'm not really a sports bra. Can someone else please vouch for me?

[Mrs. Funk]

SHW and I subscribe to your modesty theory and I have in fact already had discussions with my daughter about it. She - at the age of nine - has already come back from church with modesty concepts we disagree with, along the lines of your list of clothes. In addition to all of the other things it does, it can teach our kids that neighbors who don't wear garment-appropriate clothes and yet are appropriately dressed are immodest and sinful by implication. That is a message I would very much like to avoid having to counter again.

My youngest sister is a little fundamentalist in training. My mom especially pushes the list of "modest" clothing. During a girl's weekend in Portland last year, I pointed to a dress in a window I thought was cute. It had a poofy skirt and was sleeveless. My sister reproachfully told me, "That's unmodest. You shouldn't like unmodest things." (sigh)

[UtahDan]

I was speaking metaphorically! People, I'm not really a sports bra. Can someone else please vouch for me?

This seems like something only your wife could do. Maybe it is time she put in an appearance here.