13 Articles of Healthy Chastity

[Surfah]

Wow, that is messed up.

Agreed.

[LA Ute]

You still don't get it. DDD's assessment was dead on.

I don't think so. I am saying that the blog post from FMH is over the top in some respects. (For specifics, see my posts below.) I am also saying that when it comes to LDS young women and modesty in dress, one important consideration, among many others -- and not the most important consideration -- is that LDS YW ought to make life a little easier for the LDS young men around them by dressing modestly. What "modesty" means is another question altogether.

What's wrong with that?

[woot]

I think shogun is asserting a pretty commonly held belief in the LDS community, and really I think most religious communities, that promiscuity and multiple sexual partners is not a social good. Societies, for the most part, have evolved to value marriage and monogamy for various reasons. Of course, that evolution took place in an environment without condoms and without much of our modern thinking. Still, I think what he is saying is in the ether of at least American society so I don't think it is absurd or without support, which is not to say I necessarily agree with it.

It is not any different than a traditional marriage debate where you tell someone that there is simply no evidence hetero-marriage is better than gay marriage. In a sense you are right, but you are also overlooking thousands of years of experience. Which again, is not to say that all the experience is right, but it is to say that if you don't recognize the legitimacy of forming a belief based on that experience and based on the culture you are in you are just going to talk past people. If you want to persuade them that what most people have believed for a long time is not right, in a sense the burden really is on you. Even if what they believe is that the earth is flat.

It is sometimes emotionally satisfying to give someone the intellectually dismissive back hand but it doesn't advance the discussion.

There are some good points here. Tradition and religious beliefs certainly do color people's perceptions. My argument is simply that if one wants to make the claim that something is pathological or that something causes pathology, the burden of evidence is on them. This is just how science works. Until one can falsify the null hypothesis, alternative hypotheses are pointless.

Similarly, this is how our justice system works, at least in theory. One is innocent until proven guilty. If I accuse you of murder, I'd better have some compelling evidence. If I don't, you have no reason to take me seriously.

This is also how our laws, I would argue, are generally set up. Americans are free to do anything they want; liberty is the default. If it is found that some behavior limits the freedom of others, then a law might be passed outlawing that behavior. Ideally, if there is no reason for something to be outlawed, the American people will rise up against it because of their love of freedom. This doesn't always happen, but such are the vagaries of democracy. Similarly, if a law is proposed to outlaw some behavior that doesn't actually infringe upon the liberties of others, that law should be shot down immediately, with no being argument necessary.

[Mrs. Funk]

A more likely scenario: YM has a date. He dresses like a dork even by LDS standards (which means that it is the dorkiest outfit ever, given our dorky standards). They start kissing and he is enjoying himself. He quickly and aggressively escalates the kissing because it feels better than he ever imagined it would and she hasn't said stop and before he knows it, he is having sex with her. He goes home. Runs the date through his mind. He was kissing her in a car at night--according to everything he has learned in YM, he should have know better because he is the priesthood holder and should have never placed his date in that position. He goes to his bishop and says, "I had sex." He unwittingly takes him through the repentance process for a sin that is his alone. He can't hold a calling or take the sacrament for over 6 months. His mission is delayed for at minimum a year and whether or not he can even go is in question and to be determined at a later date. His date doesn't take the sacrament for a month and is pronounced clean.

This entire scenario presupposes that sex is just one of those things where "one thing led to another." Does that really happen to people? Really? Two people are kissing and next thing you know, they are having sex? For me at least, there is a huge chasm between kissing or even making out and the Big Lebowski. My mom said something terrifying to me when I was a teenager like, "When you get married, you'll realize how many times you got close to having sex." When I got married, I found this not remotely the case. I look back on my dating life and chuckle about how innocent I was.

At any rate, the male shouldn't be the only one having to repent in the instance of sexual indiscretions, to be sure. Both parties are responsible for consensual sex. Having the priesthood doesn't make males more responsible.

[Surfah]

This entire scenario presupposes that sex is just one of those things where "one thing led to another." Does that really happen to people? Really? Two people are kissing and next thing you know, they are having sex? For me at least, there is a huge chasm between kissing or even making out and the Big Lebowski. My mom said something terrifying to me when I was a teenager like, "When you get married, you'll realize how many times you got close to having sex." When I got married, I found this not remotely the case. I look back on my dating life and chuckle about how innocent I was.

That chasm was bridged by what she was wearing of course.

At any rate, the male shouldn't be the only one having to repent in the instance of sexual indiscretions, to be sure. Both parties are responsible for consensual sex. Having the priesthood doesn't make males more responsible.

But that is what we're conditioned with for 6 years in YM.

[Mrs. Funk]

I've been contemplating another aspect of the problem (I'm not sure if that's the right word) of having young adults confess their sexual sins to an ecclesiastical leader.

In some instances, it becomes a "he said/she said" type of things.

I've heard at least apocryphal accounts of a guy raping his date, only to go to the bishop and confess it as a mutual indiscretion. The bishop corners the girl about it, and doesn't believe her when she says it was a rape.

The reverse could also or perhaps has happened. Couple has consensual sex, and then feeling guilty, the woman goes to the bishop and says she was raped. Now it's her word against his that she wasn't raped.

Messy business.

[Mrs. Funk]

But that is what we're conditioned with for 6 years in YM.

In short, it appears most every aspect of teaching chastity to the youth needs to be revamped for both young men and young women.

[UtahDan]

But that is what we're conditioned with for 6 years in YM.

I'm curious to know whether that is sarcastic or whether you see that as inequitable. Should boys be punished more severely? My anecdotal experience, which is admittedly a bit dated, is that they are just as you have said.

I hope people aren't getting too bent out of shape by this discussion (not saying you) because in the end its seems like most of us agree that teaching modesty is a good thing, though we may differ over how and why. To me this is all very constructive and not a thinly veiled attack on the brethren or some such. We all worry about our precious kids.

[SoonerCoug]

I'm not sure that Mormon teachings on modesty are really any different from the orthodox muslim view of wrapping women in blankets so that nothing is visible at all. Sure, the Mormon view on modesty is much less extreme than the Muslim view, but I still think it's something totally concocted out of thin air. I'm not sure how much modesty mattered 20,000 years ago. If it mattered back then, then it's part of our biology. If not, then it's purely a social construct. In other words, it matters because people told us that it matters. On the other hand, maybe someone could regard it as a form of technology or something along those lines.

[SoCalCoug]

It is like I always tell Little Robin, "If you want to have sex with someone, make very sure that you both understand what that means to each other, and that you are not taking advantage of someone who is looking for a sexual affirmation of their self-worth."

When you say "Little Robin" you're referring to your son, right?

[The_Tick]

My wife joined the Church after she had TK1. So she wasn't even in the "have a child out of wedlock, give it up for adoption" indoctrinated group.

She is in RS and they have the lesson on "Getting pregnant out of wedlock, responsible and only fair thing to the child is to give it up for Adoption" lesson. She feels extreme guilt because according to the lesson "she has ruined TK1's life and she would have been better being raised by someone else".

She got up and walked out of the lesson. To this day, when the lesson comes up in RS she gets up and walks out. It is 18 years later and she is still made to feel guilty.

She refused to teach the lesson in YW, and that was part of the reason she asked out of the calling. She wasn't going to have any part of heaping any extra correlated guilt onto the YW, our daughters included.

And I really would like to see someone refute this.

But...unless you have:

1. Had a child out of wedlock.
or
2. Married someone that has.

you really aren't going to understand.

I am with the sisters in this thread on this one.

And not only do I cook and do dishes, but I shop for groceries, do laundry and go to parent teacher conferences. Eat it DDD.

[TripletDaddy]

I don't think so. I am saying that the blog post from FMH is over the top in some respects. (For specifics, see my posts below.) I am also saying that when it comes to LDS young women and modesty in dress, one important consideration, among many others -- and not the most important consideration -- is that LDS YW ought to make life a little easier for the LDS young men around them by dressing modestly. What "modesty" means is another question altogether.

What's wrong with that?

Nothing. For someone from your generation.

You continue to demonstrate that you do not grasp the concept.

Utter nonsense, indeed.

[The_Tick]

I do know that the severity of the repentance process is ratcheted up by about 1000% if you are a MP holder than if you are a AP holder.

Same thing that get a AP holder to not have the sacramant for 6 months will get the MP holder Disfellowed or Ex'd.

The penalties, from those I have known, don't accelerate for the sisters as they get older.

[TripletDaddy]

My wife joined the Church after she had TK1. So she wasn't even in the "have a child out of wedlock, give it up for adoption" indoctrinated group.

She is in RS and they have the lesson on "Getting pregnant out of wedlock, responsible and only fair thing to the child is to give it up for Adoption" lesson. She feels extreme guilt because according to the lesson "she has ruined TK1's life and she would have been better being raised by someone else".

She got up and walked out of the lesson. To this day, when the lesson comes up in RS she gets up and walks out. It is 18 years later and she is still made to feel guilty.

She refused to teach the lesson in YW, and that was part of the reason she asked out of the calling. She wasn't going to have any part of heaping any extra correlated guilt onto the YW, our daughters included.

And I really would like to see someone refute this.

But...unless you have:

1. Had a child out of wedlock.
or
2. Married someone that has.

you really aren't going to understand.

I am with the sisters in this thread on this one.

And not only do I cook and do dishes, but I shop for groceries, do laundry and go to parent teacher conferences. Eat it DDD.

I didn't say that I don't do those things! In fact, I think I have stated previously that I have an affinity for vacuuming and I absolutely do not allow anyone else to do my laundry.

Hey, I sat through a multi-stake volleyball tournament last night as a show of support. You are going to be hard pressed to top that. There were probably around 50-60 women and only 5 or so husbands. Some of the worst volleyball I have ever seen in my life. And I was there, darn it!

[SuperGabers]

I've been contemplating another aspect of the problem (I'm not sure if that's the right word) of having young adults confess their sexual sins to an ecclesiastical leader.

In some instances, it becomes a "he said/she said" type of things.

I've heard at least apocryphal accounts of a guy raping his date, only to go to the bishop and confess it as a mutual indiscretion. The bishop corners the girl about it, and doesn't believe her when she says it was a rape.

The reverse could also or perhaps has happened. Couple has consensual sex, and then feeling guilty, the woman goes to the bishop and says she was raped. Now it's her word against his that she wasn't raped.

Messy business.

Thank goodness The Spirit lets the bish know the truth.