The Daily Universe -- Defending Proposition 8

[Green Monstah]

I haven't followed Red Sox's posts but reflexively admire him because he uses the name Red Sox. How much can really be wrong with such a person?

Pile on....

[Tim]

I don't belong to a church like that. You can try to exaggerate and mischaracterize it as much as you would like, but that says more about you than it does about the church.

And *I'm* the one with my head in the sand? Eddie Jones, throw your bile on this guy instead! He's your real target!

[Green Monstah]

What a dick you've turned out to be.

Did Red Sox make a suggestion in this thread that he was looking for compassion? Did he say that he was struggling with an issue? If he had done that, I'd have given him compassion, and it would've been genuine. I, however, made a humbled comment to Eddie Jones that I was having a trial of faith, and you swooped in and shit all over it.

Indy Coug: Shitting on meaningful things since 19-- whatever the hell year you were born.

To a degree, I agree with Tim (in fact, in the Prop 8/Illegal immigration thread, I basically said some of the same things he's saying). The LGBT community is screaming for the Mormon Churches head...do you think putting their shoulder down and collectively bull rushing them is the right thing to do? I think backing off and letting things simmer is probably the right move and is more compassionate than sticking to your guns. It's like when you flop top pair in poker, but the guy behind you keeps coming over the top...sooner or later you have to slow down or you'll be broke.

Furthermore, I dispute the claim that LDS proponents of Prop. 8 have been "left to dry." Can you provide specific examples or were you referring to gay Mormons?

[Tim]

I think Tim would be surprised to learn that I am no fan of Prop. 8. In particular, I don't like non-California LDS involvement and financial support of the proposition. As mentioned above, I personally think the government should get out of the marriage business altogether. Let people choose their mate, their ceremony, and all the terms of the contract they're entering.

So, in a twist of irony, Tim latched on to an anecdote I shared and ripped me to shreds when I may be one of his only allies with regard to Prop. 8. Again, I apologize for my mistake.

As for spewing crap, I know the thread you're speaking of, and the only thing I'll say on the matter is that I lived in Phoenix when it happened and when I learned of the victim's BYU connection, I spent a good amount of time looking into the matter. I formed opinions that were based on more than a New Times expose. Now, 14 years later (maybe wiser), perhaps I should re-consider those opinions, but I'm willing to bet that I have looked into this matter more than/as much as anyone on this board. I watched the video and followed the story religiously for a 9-month period (yes, I was the current events geek in high school).

And for the clincher...it's okay to have different opinions. I respect your passion, and I actually appreciate the fact that you'd call me out so that I'll be more accurate in assertions I make. You may want to tone down the "Fox News/Drudge Report/Conservative Ward Member" bullshit, though. It actually makes lefties look like royal douchebags when they assume that someone is spoon fed information from conservative news sources. I've spent more time typing this message than I've ever spent watching Fox News. And I usually try to avoid "angry Republican" at church if I can.

I apologize, Red Sox. I was completely thrown off by your Pro-Joe Arpaio stance and made an assumption about you that I shouldn't have. That assumption has guided my comments about you since then. I apologize publicly, though, and I won't return to those comments.

[Moliere]

Perhaps I'm keeping my head in the sand on this, but that may be the only thing keeping me from walking out of this church and never coming back. You want to keep pushing me in that direction? I hope not.

If your head is in the sand (which obviously it is on this) then you are no better than the people who blindly believed what they were told by the prop 8 supporters. I'm a believing and faithful Mormon who realizes that, IMO, the church should have stayed out of this whole thing, however I also know that the church and surely the prophet are not infallible. THey make mistakes all the time. Does it bother me the church got involved? Yes. Did it affect my testimony? I don't think so, of course I kind of fall into the Nikuman line of thinking on the church which I guess helps me get passed some of the really ugly stuff in our history.

And I'm not pushing you anywhere. I'm just trying to correct the trail of misstatements that you leave in your wake and I'm trying to do it in a more civilized manner. I guess I could say things like "you are full of crap", "get your crap together", and then finish it off by insinutating that your reason is like that of a child, but instead I just decided to point out that your head is in the sand.

[Green Monstah]

I apologize, Red Sox. I was completely thrown off by your Pro-Joe Arpaio stance and made an assumption about you that I shouldn't have. That assumption has guided my comments about you since then. I apologize publicly, though, and I won't return to those comments.

It's okay, man. I understand he's a divisive figure, and perhaps if I spent a day in his custody, my opinions of him would be vastly different.

[Tim]

Furthermore, I dispute the claim that LDS proponents of Prop. 8 have been "left to dry." Can you provide specific examples or were you referring to gay Mormons?

I was referring to the members of the church who disagreed with the church's Prop 8 stance and were browbeaten and guilted and harassed, sometimes tacitly and sometimes blatantly. When the church backtracked and issued the "can't we all just get along?" message after the fact, the leaders did nothing to call off the dogs that had done all the harassing. As a result, the church's silence validated and strengthened the resolve of the harassers. They were ennobled by the belief that they had God on their side, and they made life hell for a large number of members who didn't want to toe the party line.

[Indy Coug]

What a dick you've turned out to be.

Did Red Sox make a suggestion in this thread that he was looking for compassion? Did he say that he was struggling with an issue? If he had done that, I'd have given him compassion, and it would've been genuine. I, however, made a humbled comment to Eddie Jones that I was having a trial of faith, and you swooped in and shit all over it.

Indy Coug: Shitting on meaningful things since 19-- whatever the hell year you were born.

Whether or not Red Sox asked for compassion, your reaction to him was not very becoming, and I'm hardly the first person in this thread to point that out.

Tim, since you and I became internet friends 7 or 8 years ago, I've treated you with respect and honestly cared about you and tried to give you moral support through your struggles with work, family and relationships and tried to rejoice with you with your successes.

Somewhere a few years ago, you obviously took a disliking to me, for whatever reason, but I can't think for the life of me what I could have done personally to you to warrant that. For a long time, I've tried to look past all of the stuff you said to me and behind my back, but no longer.

I don't want you to leave the church, but what I want is irrelevant. Take ownership of your faith and stop looking to make it contingent on things out of your control.

[Moliere]

What a dick you've turned out to be.

Did Red Sox make a suggestion in this thread that he was looking for compassion? Did he say that he was struggling with an issue? If he had done that, I'd have given him compassion, and it would've been genuine. I, however, made a humbled comment to Eddie Jones that I was having a trial of faith, and you swooped in and shit all over it.

Indy Coug: Shitting on meaningful things since 19-- whatever the hell year you were born.

How much longer until Mrs. Tim gets back in town? Sheesh!

[Green Monstah]

I was referring to the members of the church who disagreed with the church's Prop 8 stance and were browbeaten and guilted and harassed, sometimes tacitly and sometimes blatantly. When the church backtracked and issued the "can't we all just get along?" message after the fact, the leaders did nothing to call off the dogs that had done all the harassing. As a result, the church's silence validated and strengthened the resolve of the harassers. They were ennobled by the belief that they had God on their side, and they made life hell for a large number of members who didn't want to toe the party line.

That makes sense. I've run into that as well, but in the months since, I've noticed that as I've dropped the subject, so have the zealots (who are all likely repressed homosexuals, IMO...haha).

[Tim]

If your head is in the sand (which obviously it is on this) then you are no better than the people who blindly believed what they were told by the prop 8 supporters. I'm a believing and faithful Mormon who realizes that, IMO, the church should have stayed out of this whole thing, however I also know that the church and surely the prophet are not infallible. THey make mistakes all the time. Does it bother me the church got involved? Yes. Did it affect my testimony? I don't think so, of course I kind of fall into the Nikuman line of thinking on the church which I guess helps me get passed some of the really ugly stuff in our history.

And I'm not pushing you anywhere. I'm just trying to correct the trail of misstatements that you leave in your wake and I'm trying to do it in a more civilized manner. I guess I could say things like "you are full of crap", "get your crap together", and then finish it off by insinutating that your reason is like that of a child, but instead I just decided to point out that your head is in the sand.

I never said that the church's support for Prop 8 has affected my testimony. You've interpreted my words incorrectly. My issues are related to culture and social matters in the church. I don't like the way those of us who didn't agree with Prop 8 were treated by a very vocal portion of the membership who constantly questioned the temple worthiness, testimony, love of God, faith, etc. of anyone who didn't agree with Prop 8. Those are the people that are pushing me away, and it's not because I don't have a testimony of God and the Gospel. It's that I don't want to be in a church with people like that. So the more you act like them, or the more you validate them, the more you push people like me away.

[Moliere]

I never said that the church's support for Prop 8 has affected my testimony. You've interpreted my words incorrectly. My issues are related to culture and social matters in the church. I don't like the way those of us who didn't agree with Prop 8 were treated by a very vocal portion of the membership who constantly questioned the temple worthiness, testimony, love of God, faith, etc. of anyone who didn't agree with Prop 8. Those are the people that are pushing me away, and it's not because I don't have a testimony of God and the Gospel. It's that I don't want to be in a church with people like that. So the more you act like them, or the more you validate them, the more you push people like me away.

I agree on the first bolded point. I don't like that part of the culture either but I think it's changing. And from what I've read (I'm a long ways from California) this was more the exception than the norm.

On the second point are you saying that I acted like them? I'm getting mixed messages on this one. I never questioned your faithfulness or testimony. I was merely correcting a false statement you made. I would not have donated to Prop 8 and I probably would have voted no (not 100% sure on this) so if you think I'm questioning your faith then I guess I'm questioning mine as well.

[Non Sequitur]

I don't belong to a church like that. You can try to exaggerate and mischaracterize it as much as you would like, but that says more about you than it does about the church.

I've only met two apostles in my life -- Boyd K. Packer and Bruce R. McConkie. You remind me of both of them.

BTW, that's not a compliment.

[Tim]

How much longer until Mrs. Tim gets back in town? Sheesh!

You don't get to talk about Mrs. Tim. That kind of joke is reserved for people who are more than just casual acquaintances of mine, and that definitely doesn't include people who've recently insulted me. For example, I would never make a joke that referenced Mrs. Indy right now, not while this spat is ongoing.

[Indy Coug]

I've only met two apostles in my life -- Boyd K. Packer and Bruce R. McConkie. You remind me of both of them.

BTW, that's not a compliment.

I've met both of them as well and I barely had enough of an exchange to formulate an opinion of them other than they smiled and shook my hand and seemed to have a generally cheery demeanor.

If you're going to insult me, at least get a little more creative.