The Daily Universe -- Defending Proposition 8

[Moliere]

As a one-time-Daily Universe-rabble-rouser, I approve of this letter to the editor.

I can't pull up the link anymore. I pulled it up last night. I'm wondering if the letter was pulled from the website.

[LA Ute]

It wasn't the FP that got people to "mobilize," though, it was additional instructions provided by leaders at a lower level than the FP. The FP said nothing about standing on street corners, canvassing neighborhoods, setting up morality police patrols inside the wards to identify those who hadn't donated to the cause, nor taking all of one's savings and sinking it into the campaign (like my sister-in-law's parents did). Local leaders took general words from the FP and layered on much stricter instructions and adminitions.

If you are suggesting that the whole thing just got out of hand because of overzealous members, that is simply not true. Elder Clayton had responsibility for the entire effort. John Dalton, an Area Authority in CA, was the resident priesthood supervisor. They were intimately involved in everything that went on, right down to the organization of neighborhood teams and fund-raising. (The bolded items above, for example.) Elder Clayton reported directly and regularly to the Q12 and FP, who new exactly what was going on. If local types went overboard in the anecdotal ways you describe, they were doing that contrary to instructions. There's no evidence that the excesses you describe were more than anomalies.

[Moliere]

It wasn't the FP that got people to "mobilize," though, it was additional instructions provided by leaders at a lower level than the FP. The FP said nothing about standing on street corners, canvassing neighborhoods, setting up morality police patrols inside the wards to identify those who hadn't donated to the cause, nor taking all of one's savings and sinking it into the campaign (like my sister-in-law's parents did). Local leaders took general words from the FP and layered on much stricter instructions and adminitions.

Hmmm.....local leaders you say?

http://file.wikileaks.org/file/lds-o...-broadcast.pdf

Under the First Presidency's direction,

Yard Signs Will Be Blossoming
Now with these three phases in mind, here is an outline of activities between now and Election Day. First, the week of October 6th. What's going to be ongoing or continuing during this week? Well, phase one: canvassing, identifying voter preferences. Phase two will also continue‐‐that's the advocacy and persuasion phase. That also includes voter registration, and yard signs will be blossoming. That means they'll be being put up in your neighborhoods and around your homes. We'll also begin early contacting of the voters who will be voting by mail.

Next is the week of October 13th. We'll be doing some more phase one canvassing to identify voter preferences during that week. We'll also be working on phase two, "Advocacy and Persuasion," and phase three, contacting voters who will vote by mail.

Next is the week of October 20th. During that week we'll work on phase two, "Advocacy and Persuasion," trying to reach voters who are yet undecided. We'll work on phase three, to "get out the vote".

Phone Banks and Calling Teams
Now October 20th is the deadline for all completed voter registration forms to arrive at local registrar voter offices. Next is the week of October 27th. The eight day final calling list begins. Phone banks will be available for evening calling. Calling teams are also welcome to make calls from their homes. Calls will be both persuasive and "get out the vote" in nature. Finally, the week of November 3. On November 3 we'll have all‐day calling centers. On November 4, we'll beworking on "get out the vote", which will require many different activities to help voters get to their voting places and cast their ballots.

Thirty People in Each Ward
As you can see, much remains to be accomplished. We have been asked that at least thirty people in each ward and branch in California be asked to donate four hours each week between now and the election. Think of the good that will come from this level of participation between now and
November 4th.

This ones also on point...

http://file.wikileaks.org/file/first...california.pdf

We ask that you do all you can to support the proposed constitutional amdedment by donating of your means and time....

Hey Tim, your head is still in the sand!!!

http://www.cougaruteforum.com/showpo...07&postcount=8

[Tim]

Hmmm.....local leaders you say?

http://file.wikileaks.org/file/lds-o...-broadcast.pdf



This ones also on point...

http://file.wikileaks.org/file/first...california.pdf



Hey Tim, your head is still in the sand!!!

http://www.cougaruteforum.com/showpo...07&postcount=8

Perhaps I'm keeping my head in the sand on this, but that may be the only thing keeping me from walking out of this church and never coming back. You want to keep pushing me in that direction? I hope not.

[Green Monstah]

I just spoke with my friends. They are singing a different tune than they were two years ago. Apparently, LDSFS is going well out of its way to make sure they are buddy-buddy with whatever state agency that handles adoptions and still operates in Mass. from the Nashua office. CC simply refused to change its stance in any way, shape or form. The Church gets around the "sexual orientation discrimination" charge by limiting adoptive parent candidates to TR-holding Mormons.

I stand corrected, and I apologize for my error.

[Tim]

If you are suggesting that the whole thing just got out of hand because of overzealous members, that is simply not true. Elder Clayton had responsibility for the entire effort. John Dalton, an Area Authority in CA, was the resident priesthood supervisor. They were intimately involved in everything that went on, right down to the organization of neighborhood teams and fund-raising. (The bolded items above, for example.) Elder Clayton reported directly and regularly to the Q12 and FP, who new exactly what was going on. If local types went overboard in the anecdotal ways you describe, they were doing that contrary to instructions. There's no evidence that the excesses you describe were more than anomalies.

I guess that depends on the definition of the word anomaly. 1 in 100? 1 in 1000? What if I could point out to you at least three stakes in which members were systematically pressured into donating by their stake leaders?

[Indy Coug]

Perhaps I'm keeping my head in the sand on this, but that may be the only thing keeping me from walking out of this church and never coming back. You want to keep pushing me in that direction? I hope not.

Spare us the drama queen crap, Tim. If you're that close to walking out on the church, that's all on you and no one else.

Not the church.

Not whoever was behind the Prop 8 atrocities, real or imagined.

Not CUF members.

Not members of the GOP.

Not CB members.

You.

Get a freaking grip.

[Tim]

Hmmm.....local leaders you say?
http://file.wikileaks.org/file/lds-o...-broadcast.pdf

It looks like Elder Cook gets his political material from the folks on CougarBoard, too. He needs to read yesterday's letter to the editor in the Daily Universe. Oh, whoops, they've pulled it from the website.

[Tim]

Spare us the drama queen crap, Tim. If you're that close to walking out on the church, that's all on you and no one else.

Not the church.

Not whoever was behind the Prop 8 atrocities, real or imagined.

Not CUF members.

Not members of the GOP.

Not CB members.

You.

Get a freaking grip.

It's the warm compassion during trials of faith that keeps me coming back to CUF. Thanks, Indy. You're a gem.

[Green Monstah]

$9MM per church? Don't think that could be anywhere close to correct, unless of course they are buying from fulton and then fulton donates back to some church fund

OK $2MM per church...gracious. Mine burned down 10 years ago and it was a total loss. At the time they estimated $6MM in damage...inflation, improvements, etc., I thought $9MM was close.

[Indy Coug]

It's the warm compassion during trials of faith that keeps me coming back to CUF. Thanks, Indy. You're a gem.

You mean the compassion you've shown to people like RedSox in this thread? I haven't seen a helluva lot of compassion coming from your corner in political and religious discussions for quite some time.

You look like you want to have someone else to blame for whatever struggles you're going through. As long as you continue to do that, you will struggle or you will exit.

If you're honestly looking for support and understanding then start acting like it instead of being a pissy little shit.

[Tim]

Spare us the drama queen crap, Tim. If you're that close to walking out on the church, that's all on you and no one else.

Not the church.

Not whoever was behind the Prop 8 atrocities, real or imagined.

Not CUF members.

Not members of the GOP.

Not CB members.

You.

Get a freaking grip.

I make no apologies, Indy, for the fact that I have no desire to belong to a church in which lies and fear tactics are used by senior leadership to push a political agenda on to supposedly "free" members. Then those same senior leaders backtrack once the goings get tough but they do nothing to help the members they've hung out to dry.

Perhaps you like being a part of that church. It probably makes you feel good about yourself. It appears the LDS church is nothing more than your personal Snuggie, Indy.

[Indy Coug]

I make no apologies, Indy, for the fact that I have no desire to belong to a church in which lies and fear tactics are used by senior leadership to push a political agenda on to supposedly "free" members. Then those same senior leaders backtrack once the goings get tough but they do nothing to help the members they've hung out to dry.

Perhaps you like being a part of that church. It probably makes you feel good about yourself. It appears the LDS church is nothing more than your personal Snuggie, Indy.

I don't belong to a church like that. You can try to exaggerate and mischaracterize it as much as you would like, but that says more about you than it does about the church.

[Tim]

You mean the compassion you've shown to people like RedSox in this thread? I haven't seen a helluva lot of compassion coming from your corner in political and religious discussions for quite some time.

You look like you want to have someone else to blame for whatever struggles you're going through. As long as you continue to do that, you will struggle or you will exit.

If you're honestly looking for support and understanding then start acting like it instead of being a pissy little shit.

What a dick you've turned out to be.

Did Red Sox make a suggestion in this thread that he was looking for compassion? Did he say that he was struggling with an issue? If he had done that, I'd have given him compassion, and it would've been genuine. I, however, made a humbled comment to Eddie Jones that I was having a trial of faith, and you swooped in and shit all over it.

Indy Coug: Shitting on meaningful things since 19-- whatever the hell year you were born.

[Green Monstah]

I think Tim would be surprised to learn that I am no fan of Prop. 8. In particular, I don't like non-California LDS involvement and financial support of the proposition. As mentioned above, I personally think the government should get out of the marriage business altogether. Let people choose their mate, their ceremony, and all the terms of the contract they're entering.

So, in a twist of irony, Tim latched on to an anecdote I shared and ripped me to shreds when I may be one of his only allies with regard to Prop. 8. Again, I apologize for my mistake.

As for spewing crap, I know the thread you're speaking of, and the only thing I'll say on the matter is that I lived in Phoenix when it happened and when I learned of the victim's BYU connection, I spent a good amount of time looking into the matter. I formed opinions that were based on more than a New Times expose. Now, 14 years later (maybe wiser), perhaps I should re-consider those opinions, but I'm willing to bet that I have looked into this matter more than/as much as anyone on this board. I watched the video and followed the story religiously for a 9-month period (yes, I was the current events geek in high school).

And for the clincher...it's okay to have different opinions. I respect your passion, and I actually appreciate the fact that you'd call me out so that I'll be more accurate in assertions I make. You may want to tone down the "Fox News/Drudge Report/Conservative Ward Member" bullshit, though. It actually makes lefties look like royal douchebags when they assume that someone is spoon fed information from conservative news sources. I've spent more time typing this message than I've ever spent watching Fox News. And I usually try to avoid "angry Republican" at church if I can.