I learned in church today

[Uncle Ted]

There's a 13 year old in my ward. His parents are divorced, dad remarried and active in the church, mom very antagonistic to the church. The kid has not been baptized but has been meeting with the missionaries on almost a weekly basis to try amend this. Given that I've taught the kid in Sunday School and soon to be in Young Men's when he turns 14 next month, I've been asked to participate in a few of these discussions.

The missionaries have used the commitment pattern for prayer to gain a testimony, to soften his mom's heart to allow him to be baptized and "a myriad of a few other things" to really twist this kid up. It's been hard to sit through at times. But with the dad there, he seems totally cool with the twisting, so who am I?

Seems like this new policy should be far more reaching than just children of a homosexual. Maybe not letting any child of a split family to get baptized until they're 18 is the policy where we end up down the road.

Hmm.. maybe the church should consider being like the catholics and "outlaw" divorce.


Or make the minimal age of baptism 18 for all new members. Let the elders pass the sacrament and chase down fast offerings.

[Uncle Ted]

What is wrong with good old-fashioned "parental consent"?

I don't know but I am sure the lawyers will come up with something.

[hostile]

There's a 13 year old in my ward. His parents are divorced, dad remarried and active in the church, mom very antagonistic to the church. The kid has not been baptized but has been meeting with the missionaries on almost a weekly basis to try amend this. Given that I've taught the kid in Sunday School and soon to be in Young Men's when he turns 14 next month, I've been asked to participate in a few of these discussions.

The missionaries have used the commitment pattern for prayer to gain a testimony, to soften his mom's heart to allow him to be baptized and "a myriad of a few other things" to really twist this kid up. It's been hard to sit through at times. But with the dad there, he seems totally cool with the twisting, so who am I?

Seems like this new policy should be far more reaching than just children of a homosexual. Maybe not letting any child of a split family to get baptized until they're 18 is the policy where we end up down the road.

If the mom doesn't want her son to be baptized she should just tell the missionaries she is cohabitating in a same sex relationship.

[clackamascoug]

You think a baptism punches your ticket for the CK, for one.

Do you even know the CK has 3 different neighborhoods where only certain people can live? Do you think that the servants to the gods are bussed in everyday from the Terrestial Kingdom? Baptism is a covenant - and by right has admission to the CK on its own merit. The endowment is a covenant - and by right has admission & perks in the CK on its own merit. The New & Everlasting covenant of marriage is a progression from baptism and endowment and it has certain rights and privileges associated with that covenant. Who's going to bring me a diet coke when I ring the bell? Certainly not a terrestialite... I wouldn't stand for that. It'll be those baptized kids who fell away from the gospel as young adults - that's who.

[Commando]

I thought the Terrestrial was full of genuinely good people who for whatever reason didn't accept the Gospel and partakers of the Covenant who were led astray by the wiles of men, but I may be thinking of a different thing... I get that your answer wasn't 100% serious anyway, but I guess what i'm trying to say is that the act itself doesn't punch the ticket-- you genuinely have to keep that baptismal covenant and endure to the end to get into the CK, sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise. So dunking the kiddies for the sole purpose of "punching their ticket" certainly wouldn't have that desired effect.

[clackamascoug]

I thought the Terrestrial was full of genuinely good people who for whatever reason didn't accept the Gospel and partakers of the Covenant who were led astray by the wiles of men, but I may be thinking of a different thing... I get that your answer wasn't 100% serious anyway, but I guess what i'm trying to say is that the act itself doesn't punch the ticket-- you genuinely have to keep that baptismal covenant and endure to the end to get into the CK, sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise. So dunking the kiddies for the sole purpose of "punching their ticket" certainly wouldn't have that desired effect.

There is a chance that it's easier than you're thinking. We know through D&C 132 that after entering into the new and everlasting that you have to Murrrderr someone to invalidate the covenant, and since the Baptismal Covenant is lessor in magnitude than the N&Eing... perhaps the bar is also lowered for those people as well. Baptism into the Lord's Church has to have some merit and room at the table. Enduring to the end is a very subjective topic as well, whereas baptism is a very cut and dry topic. Either it happened or it didn't.

[Commando]

There is a chance that it's easier than you're thinking. We know through D&C 132 that after entering into the new and everlasting that you have to Murrrderr someone to invalidate the covenant, and since the Baptismal Covenant is lessor in magnitude than the N&Eing... perhaps the bar is also lowered for those people as well. Baptism into the Lord's Church has to have some merit and room at the table. Enduring to the end is a very subjective topic as well, whereas baptism is a very cut and dry topic. Either it happened or it didn't.

Sure, but I contend that upholding the covenants of the baptism is infinitely more important than the actual physical act of being baptized. I don't think it's that subjective. You are either at least making an effort to maintain your covenants, renewing them, and actively repenting on a constant basis or you have left the covenant and its accompanying blessings behind. I mean-- that sounds extremely difficult from an outside perspective, but if you are active in the Church you are likely already doing it, making it really not that hard, like you say.

[chrisrenrut]

say a kid is living with his mom who has sole custody, but his dad is in a gay marriage - we've learned that's a no go, but what if a bishop/SP decideds on his own that it's a go - kid can be baptized and they go through with the baptism. Not necessarily to go against policy intentionally, but perhaps due to ignorance. What then are the repurcussions, if any? I can't see a bishop being released over that.

We have a similar issue coming up in our ward very soon. It's a kid with the family situation you described, but is already baptized and is a deacon. He turns 14 in early January, and according to the handbook, he can't be "blessed, baptized, ordained, or recommended for a mission" until he is of "legal age" and does the whole disavow and 1st presidency exception thing. We aren't sure how to go about ordaining him a Teacher.

I'm not sure how not letting him progress protects his innocence, or creates a legal situation for the church. I would imagine there may be some clarification or wording changes coming soon for situations like these.

[smokymountainrain]

We have a similar issue coming up in our ward very soon. It's a kid with the family situation you described, but is already baptized and is a deacon. He turns 14 in early January, and according to the handbook, he can't be "blessed, baptized, ordained, or recommended for a mission" until he is of "legal age" and does the whole disavow and 1st presidency exception thing. We aren't sure how to go about ordaining him a Teacher.

I'm not sure how not letting him progress protects his innocence, or creates a legal situation for the church. I would imagine there may be some clarification or wording changes coming soon for situations like these.

Regardless, I think you guys should go ahead and ordain him so I can get a definitive answer to my question. Just have the bish take one for the team.

[Uncle Ted]

This seems to be going overboard... but so does the policy.

[Uncle Ted]

Church Releases Holy Ghost Simulator App for Children of Gay Parents


SALT LAKE CITY—The sudden announcement that the LDS church will bar children with gay parents from baptism came as a shock to everyone, but especially to the LDS church, who had planned on subtly slipping the policy into the handbook. This PR blunder demonstrated not only how little the Brethren understand the Internet, but also how little they understand the LGBT community’s regard for subtlety.


Though they were slow to respond to the initial outcry, church leaders are now putting their shoulders to the spin machine to answer important questions like: “How do you think will this affect families?” “Why do you hate gays?” and “How do we resign?” (The brethren’s answer to all three is: “We don’t.”)

Perhaps the most pressing quandary is: If children of gay parents cannot be baptized and thus cannot receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost, how will they be able to make important, enlightened decisions—like choosing to disavow their wicked parents?

Without the Gift of the Holy Ghost, it is likely that the children of gay parents will be subject to the buffetings of Satan, engaging in all manner of levity and revelry with no moral compass and unable to discern between confirmation bias truth and deceit.


In an untraditional marriage, LDS Church is actually using it’s arch-nemesis, the internet, to solve this problem. Church spokesman, Elder P. Reese Craft announced this morning that the Church will soon release a Holy Ghost simulator app that will help guide the children of gay parents until they can receive the actual Comforter at age 18 when they are old enough to think for themselves.


“The Lowly Ghost App functions just like the Holy Ghost,” said Craft. “You ask it a question and it responds with needed direction and comfort.”

[...]

One youth who participated in the Lowly Ghost beta test group said the app has really helped him. “When I told the Lowly Ghost I was tempted to masturbate, it answered, ‘When tempted, stay firm and hold to the rod.’”


Another test group member was more critical. “When I asked the Lowly Ghost about my brother who is leading people astray, it said, ‘Slay him. It is better that one man should perish than that a whole nation should dwindle and perish because of unbelief.’ I get why the Lowly Ghost is right, but couldn’t God just send an angel with a drawn sword to do it?”

http://zelphontheshelf.com/church-re...f-gay-parents/

[RC Vikings]

Do you even know the CK has 3 different neighborhoods where only certain people can live? Do you think that the servants to the gods are bussed in everyday from the Terrestial Kingdom? Baptism is a covenant - and by right has admission to the CK on its own merit. The endowment is a covenant - and by right has admission & perks in the CK on its own merit. The New & Everlasting covenant of marriage is a progression from baptism and endowment and it has certain rights and privileges associated with that covenant. Who's going to bring me a diet coke when I ring the bell? Certainly not a terrestialite... I wouldn't stand for that. It'll be those baptized kids who fell away from the gospel as young adults - that's who.

I love how the gospel is so simple.

[optimomojo]

I'm not sure how [this] creates a legal situation for the church.

because...

...go ahead and ordain him so I can get a definitive answer to my question. Just have the bish take one for the team.

What is wrong with good old-fashioned "parental consent"?

even without parental consent, the church or its members (including a former spouse) sometimes don't respect parental authority of former/non-members.

[swampfrog]

Found this today in my Facebook feed:

https://medium.com/@DonaMajicShow/fa...l-9eae6c04a38b

Closely parallels my thoughts on my continued journey within the church.

[Bo Diddley]

Found this today in my Facebook feed:

https://medium.com/@DonaMajicShow/fa...l-9eae6c04a38b

Closely parallels my thoughts on my continued journey within the church.

I can relate to his point of view, but not his writing style.