I learned in church today

[Moliere]

Moliere is becoming an apostate before our eyes.

I am?

[wuapinmon]

I am?

Not really. I was baiting Indy.

[Moliere]

Not really. I was baiting Indy.

So back to BoM literacy. I wish we had some linguists around here to discuss this as I wonder what the rational is for (1) Lehi's family knowing both Hebrew and Egyptian, (2) teaching Hebrew to future prophets so they can read the brass plates yet at the same time not having Hebrew be their native tongue, and (3) having the people be educated enough to read in spite of most civilizations being incredibly illiterate at this time.

Anyway, just some things I think about.

[wuapinmon]

So back to BoM literacy. I wish we had some linguists around here to discuss this as I wonder what the rational is for (1) Lehi's family knowing both Hebrew and Egyptian, (2) teaching Hebrew to future prophets so they can read the brass plates yet at the same time not having Hebrew be their native tongue, and (3) having the people be educated enough to read in spite of most civilizations being incredibly illiterate at this time.

Anyway, just some things I think about.

I think that there are some FARMS articles about this stuff (1&2), from the last 10 years or so. For #3, it's Nephite exceptionalism, I guess. But, you'd think that Nephi would've mentioned that God instructed them to teach everyone to read. But, if one thinks that the BofM is a fraud, I don't buy that they wouldn't have covered this 'trail' is their explanations. But, maybe we just think that everyone could read. King Benjamin's speech relied on the Occupy Wall Street microphone method, pretty much.

[Moliere]

I think that there are some FARMS articles about this stuff (1&2), from the last 10 years or so. For #3, it's Nephite exceptionalism, I guess. But, you'd think that Nephi would've mentioned that God instructed them to teach everyone to read. But, if one thinks that the BofM is a fraud, I don't buy that they wouldn't have covered this 'trail' is their explanations. But, maybe we just think that everyone could read. King Benjamin's speech relied on the Occupy Wall Street microphone method, pretty much.

That's the first example that came to mind. Didn't they basically write down the words and pass them around? Wonder how they did that. Did they have paper? Were they all literate? Maybe they had the literate ones read to smaller congregations.

In any case, they were a pretty advanced civilization at the time.

[Scorcho]

I’ve learned that renewing your baptismal covenants doesn’t always have to be drab and boring. During the passing of our wards Sacrament last week, suddenly and loudly the congregation all heard the theme song from the movie Halloween. It was the ringtone from someone’s cell phone, and it was a solid 7-10 seconds before someone was able to silence it. It was awesome. I immediately had visions of Jamie Lee Curtis injured and limping down the hall of a deserted hospital.

After it happened, our Bishop didn’t look angry, he just looked sort of sad and defeated.

My 11 year old loved it, and was grinning ear to ear. I loved it to. It was one of those special spontaneous bonding moments, between father and daughter.

[Paperback Writer]

I've heard the same argument as The Tick but the one that came up in my GD was that the plates either originally belonged to Lehi and were stolen by Laban or that Lehi (through Nephi) was rightful to ask for the plates and should have received them since they contained the genealogy of Lehi's ancestors. As it was explained, in either case Nephi would have been justified in killing Laban according to the law of Moses. I have not the time nor effort to research the validity of these premises.

1 Nephi 5:16 pretty much refutes this. "And Laban was also a decendant of Joseph, wherefore he and his fathers had kept the records.

I subscribe to the posse theory mentioned by Creekster and others. Laban & Co. go searching for their stolen goods (plates and servant) and Lehi & family possibly find out in person just how many men Laban can command.

I'll have to thnk more about BOM literacy among the Nephites and Lamanites. I had always thought of only the Nephites being a semi-literate people. And that the Lamanites relied on [oral] traditions that could exaggerate or morph over time.

[Northwestcoug]

I think that there are some FARMS articles about this stuff (1&2), from the last 10 years or so. For #3, it's Nephite exceptionalism, I guess. But, you'd think that Nephi would've mentioned that God instructed them to teach everyone to read. But, if one thinks that the BofM is a fraud, I don't buy that they wouldn't have covered this 'trail' is their explanations. But, maybe we just think that everyone could read. King Benjamin's speech relied on the Occupy Wall Street microphone method, pretty much.

I think that's a common view in the church, related to the teaching that the BOM was written for our day. But I think it's incorrect. It seems to me the Nephites were well versed with scriptures, and by extension very literate:

Jacob 7:23
23 And it came to pass that peace and the love of God was restored again among the people; and they searched the scriptures, and hearkened no more to the words of this wicked man.

Alma 33:14
14 Now behold, my brethren, I would ask if ye have read the scriptures? If ye have, how can ye disbelieve on the Son of God?

Alma 14:1
1 And it came to pass after he had made an end of speaking unto the people many of them did believe on his words, and began to repent, and to search the scriptures.

[Portland Ute]

I wish I could post a video right now of th Relief Society president. She is addressing our fifth Sunday combined adult meeting.

Her topic: Modest dress...specifically the dangers of leggings.


She claims to have been given this assignment from the stake presidency.

She is literally pointing and wagging her index finger at those of us in attendance.

Her voice is raised and trembling.

I've talked about how much this woman overreaches and is intrusive in her calling.

I just about laughed out loud when this finger pointing hunched over bitter woman just closed with: ” Satan wants us to wear those immodest clothes because sexual thoughts and feelings keep us from drawing near to the lord....”

WTF do I come anymore?

The stake presidency's big concern is leggings and tight fitting shirts and clothing???? And they choose this person to delivery this message?

Geh.....

She ended with amen, I with ” whatever”.

[DU Ute]

It's too bad LDS women don't feel more empowered and independent overall. Maybe if they had their worth tied to something more than bearing and raising children some of them would stop feeling so threatened by other women looking sexually appealing. You've got to feel sorry for her husband. At least by not having his wife fill his head with sexual thoughts he is drawing closer to the Lord.

[smokymountainrain]

We had a guy - former Bishop and most recently WML - stand up to give a talk on priorities and one for the first things he said was

"I'm supposed to give a talk on priorities to a group of people who got up to come to church at 9am on a cold winter morning. If it weren't for the fact that I have to take up more time, I would simply say 'Thank you'. Thank you for your faithfulness, your diligence and your example' and then I would sit down..."

Those may not be his exact words as I'm sure he said it much more eloquently than I just did, but that's the gist of it and I loved it.

[FMCoug]

It's too bad LDS women don't feel more empowered and independent overall. Maybe if they had their worth tied to something more than bearing and raising children some of them would stop feeling so threatened by other women looking sexually appealing. You've got to feel sorry for her husband. At least by not having his wife fill his head with sexual thoughts he is drawing closer to the Lord.

There is a sister in our ward that sounds like that RS president. Basically an old shrew who talks proudly of what a B of a mom she was. She is a RS instructor and it happens to fall on the day that they have the YW attend. A winning combination to be sure. The YW all hate RS.

But to your point, her husband is the Stake Patriarch.

[pellegrino]

I think that's a common view in the church, related to the teaching that the BOM was written for our day. But I think it's incorrect. It seems to me the Nephites were well versed with scriptures, and by extension very literate:

Jacob 7:23
23 And it came to pass that peace and the love of God was restored again among the people; and they searched the scriptures, and hearkened no more to the words of this wicked man.

Alma 33:14
14 Now behold, my brethren, I would ask if ye have read the scriptures? If ye have, how can ye disbelieve on the Son of God?

Alma 14:1
1 And it came to pass after he had made an end of speaking unto the people many of them did believe on his words, and began to repent, and to search the scriptures.

there are other answers to these questions, but they require readings and positions that are much less literal than any provided in this thread.


During our 5th Sunday lesson today two things occurred, one more interesting than the other.

1- the full time missionaries taught the ward the why and how of missionary work. the script could have been taken from my missionary journal

2- a small sheet was passed out that had the details of our ward's goals for the year. It reads like a business action plan. Some of the highlights include:

-Organization according to the THREEFOLD mission of the church.

Perfecting the Saints
-increase sacrament attendance by 10% (we currently average 300)
-20% increase in active temple recommend holders (166 to 200)

Preaching the Gospel
-20 convert baptisms
-90% of all new members to remain active during the year.
-5 less active members activated during the year

Redeeming the Dead
-100% of new members assist in performing baptisms for deceased family members
-100% compliance with temple assignments.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I am giving a talk in our combined RS/Priesthood 5th Sunday meeting in about an hour.

I look forward to logging on to CUF this afternoon and reading the critiques.

Memo to self: Don't forget to wag a finger.

[Moliere]

I learned that setting up chairs is a priesthood assignment.