I learned in church today

[LA Ute]

When it comes to the Church, LA Ute is like a defense attorney. He isn't trying to prove his case, he's just looking to create reasonable doubt in yours.

You guys need me here, face it. Otherwise all your assumptions would go unchallenged, and I know you don't want that.

[Moliere]

You guys need me here, face it. Otherwise all your assumptions would go unchallenged, and I know you don't want that.

I'm not a lawyer so reasonable doubt is meaningless to me. I got my training as an auditor so I'm more interested in someone providing reasonable assurance that their position is correct.

I like LA Ute most of the time. I'm likely almost as orthodox as him, I just like to ask questions instead of answer them since most of the questions asked in the Foyer don't have an answer.

[Sleeping in EQ]

You guys need me here, face it. Otherwise all your assumptions would go unchallenged, and I know you don't want that.

I'm not trying to run you off, I just like knocking you off that high, PAC-12 horse you prance around on.

[LA Ute]

I like LA Ute most of the time. I'm likely almost as orthodox as him, I just like to ask questions instead of answer them since most of the questions asked in the Foyer don't have an answer.

Absolutely right. In any case, I'm not offended by anything you post and I hope I don't offend you. I don't care if I offend YOhio.

I'm not trying to run you off, I just like knocking you off that high, PAC-12 horse you prance around on.

I'm still on it but I'll try to dismount voluntarily and will avoid prancing in the meantime.

[RC Vikings]

You grew up the son of a military man who later became an engineer? This explains a lot about your rebellious ways.

I'm afraid this apple fell off the tree and then rolled down the hill a ways. My Dad was the greatest man I've known but we didn't have much in common. He would want to teach me how to work a slide ruler and I would rather talk about how the Cubs were doing or he would want to drive up and watch them build the dam and I would rather be golfing. I'm not half the man my dad was but I like to think I'm a better father.

[Pheidippides]

I'm sure if he would have fasted and prayed he would have found a way to go....

But I think I made my point. Each circumstance is an individual circumstance and should be looked at as such. I don't like the hard-line "everyone should go on a mission or else" approach but I do like the "everyone should prepare to go on a mission" since it implies keeping ourselves worthy and doing what is needed if we are called.

My wife (not an RM) actually brought this up to me the other day. She is starting to have misgivings about missions in general after seeing some of the things one of my brothers went through (full-on PTSD - a professional's diagnosis, not mine). His situation was a bit unique, and I've been upfront about the great shaping influence my mission was. Still, both of us are not happy with the "go or else" mentality.

We have both decided that we are not going to allow anybody - church or otherwise - to try to force, manipulate, influence or coerce our own son to go. I will talk about the great influence mine was - not even in my darkest moments of doubt have I ever regretted going - and let him know the value, and encourage him in other ways. But no bishop, stake president, YM leader or other is going to browbeat him into it, and if he chooses not to serve, I'll love him just the same.

The amount of influence the church (looking especially at the local leaders) has over my children and in my home is a topic for another thread.

[LA Ute]

My wife (not an RM) actually brought this up to me the other day. She is starting to have misgivings about missions in general after seeing some of the things one of my brothers went through (full-on PTSD - a professional's diagnosis, not mine). His situation was a bit unique, and I've been upfront about the great shaping influence my mission was. Still, both of us are not happy with the "go or else" mentality.

We have both decided that we are not going to allow anybody - church or otherwise - to try to force, manipulate, influence or coerce our own son to go. I will talk about the great influence mine was - not even in my darkest moments of doubt have I ever regretted going - and let him know the value, and encourage him in other ways. But no bishop, stake president, YM leader or other is going to browbeat him into it, and if he chooses not to serve, I'll love him just the same.

I think this is the right approach. All I've ever done (and I really think the right thing to do) is tell my kids what an important experience my mission was for me and how grateful I am that I was able to serve. A young man (or woman) who doesn't really want to be there is going have lots of trouble, it seems to me, and there are the seeds of disaster in that situation. FWIW, I don't think SPs and others are in the business of browbeating kids into serving missions. It would be a rare SP or bishop who has the ability to do that anyway, and a rare kid who would allow it to happen.

BTW, Moliere, not to be contentious, but don't you think "everyone should go on a mission or else" overstates the current church position just a tad?

[Pheidippides]

I think this is the right approach. All I've ever done (and I really think the right thing to do) is tell my kids what an important experience my mission was for me and how grateful I am that I was able to serve. A young man (or woman) who doesn't really want to be there is going have lots of trouble, it seems to me, and there are the seeds of disaster in that situation. FWIW, I don't think SPs and others are in the business of browbeating kids into serving missions. It would be a rare SP or bishop who has the ability to do that anyway, and a rare kid who would allow it to happen.

BTW, Moliere, not to be contentious, but don't you think "everyone should go on a mission or else" overstates the current church position just a tad?

I beg to differ on this. Many are not only in the business of it, they are quite active about it. A young man in my ward decided he was going to go into the Marines right out of high school instead of serve a mission and you should have heard the uproar it caused in all sorts of meetings. I know because I was in most of them. Hours were spent discussing how we could get this young man (a friend of mine, incidentally) to see the error of his ways.

FTR, he's a Marine now.

That is one example from many I have personally seen. I admit to being a tad animated about this particular example because it's my current stake. But it is not the only.

[LA Ute]

I beg to differ on this. Many are not only in the business of it, they are quite active about it. A young man in my ward decided he was going to go into the Marines right out of high school instead of serve a mission and you should have heard the uproar it caused in all sorts of meetings. I know because I was in most of them. Hours were spent discussing how we could get this young man (a friend of mine, incidentally) to see the error of his ways.

FTR, he's a Marine now.

That is one example from many I have personally seen. I admit to being a tad animated about this particular example because it's my current stake. But it is not the only.

Im beginning to see why my former SP, who was very hard core, tells me he loves the Church in Texas so much . (He moved there after his release.)

[Uncle Ted]

Im beginning to see why my former SP, who was very hard core, tells me he loves the Church in Texas so much . (He moved there after his release.)

Will y'all stop driving your hard core members to Texas? It is bad enough we have to put up with the rest of your state's refugees.

[LA Ute]

Will y'all stop driving your hard core members to Texas? It is bad enough we have to put up with the rest of your state's refugees.

That was TIC, BTW.

Hey, even this SP was not a browbeater. He was a "raise the bar" guy mainly. Rather than push the boys to go, he'd stand there and tell them how tough it was going to be for them to be qualified. There has to be a happy medium somehere....

[Uncle Ted]

That was TIC, BTW.

Hey, even this SP was not a browbeater. He was a "raise the bar" guy mainly. Rather than push the boys to go, he'd stand there and tell them how tough it was going to be for them to be qualified. There has to be a happy medium somehere....

Hmm... maybe he is now my SP.

One YM I know in our stake had his mission delayed because the SP thought the YM played video games too much.

[Portland Ute]

BTW, Moliere, not to be contentious, but don't you think "everyone should go on a mission or else" overstates the current church position just a tad?

If it overstates the current church position, then why is it still very prevalent in Church teaching materials for young men.

Go to the current YM's manual and read lesson 25 and tell me that is not the message.

[LA Ute]

If it overstates the current church position, then why is it still very prevalent in Church teaching materials for young men.

Go to the current YM's manual and read lesson 25 and tell me that is not the message.

Just ribbing Moliere over what "or else" means.

[Green Monstah]

Your ward sang "The Battle Hymn of the Republic" on the 4th of July (well the 3rd)? I would've walked out. False indignation.

Sore losers. We sang it here in Texas with vigor.