The Great Apostasy

[Solon]

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Yup. I agree based on the scriptural reference.

But Russell Nelson goes further and calls it necessary:

This Great Apostasy followed the pattern that had ended each previous dispensation. The very first was in the time of Adam. Then came dispensations of Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and others. Each prophet had a divine commission to teach of the divinity and the doctrine of the Lord Jesus Christ. In each age these teachings were meant to help the people. But their disobedience resulted in apostasy. Thus, all previous dispensations were limited in time and location. They were limited in time because each ended in apostasy. They were limited in location to a relatively small segment of planet earth.

The Restoration of All Things
Thus a complete restoration was required. God the Father and Jesus Christ called upon the Prophet Joseph Smith to be the prophet of this dispensation. All divine powers of previous dispensations were to be restored through him.13 This dispensation of the fulness of times would not be limited in time or in location. It would not end in apostasy, and it would fill the world.14


Hmmmm. Is this a guarantee that our dispensation will not apostatize? Can I eat drink and be merry because I know everyone else will save my dispensation from ruin? How can I reconcile this with all the dire warnings that we are the evillest generation on record?

I agree that the scripture in 2 Thessalonians 2.3 means that Jesus won't come unless there is first an apostasy, and the "lawless man" comes and sets himself up as God.

If all other dispensations sank into apostate unbelief, why is this dispensation so different? I'm sure all other dispensations thought "this time will be different. We're better than those chumps who came before."

[Indy Coug]

If all other dispensations sank into apostate unbelief, why is this dispensation so different? I'm sure all other dispensations thought "this time will be different. We're better than those chumps who came before."

Isn't this referred to as the Last Dispensation?

[cowboy]

Hmmmm. Is this a guarantee that our dispensation will not apostatize?

Given time, I'm sure we would, but the Lord decided to end the world as we know it with a bonfire of unequaled proportions before that happens. This dispensation ain't got time for apostasy - we're going out in a blaze of glory.

[creekster]

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Yup. I agree based on the scriptural reference.

But Russell Nelson goes further and calls it necessary:

This Great Apostasy followed the pattern that had ended each previous dispensation. The very first was in the time of Adam. Then came dispensations of Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and others. Each prophet had a divine commission to teach of the divinity and the doctrine of the Lord Jesus Christ. In each age these teachings were meant to help the people. But their disobedience resulted in apostasy. Thus, all previous dispensations were limited in time and location. They were limited in time because each ended in apostasy. They were limited in location to a relatively small segment of planet earth.

The Restoration of All Things
Thus a complete restoration was required. God the Father and Jesus Christ called upon the Prophet Joseph Smith to be the prophet of this dispensation. All divine powers of previous dispensations were to be restored through him.13 This dispensation of the fulness of times would not be limited in time or in location. It would not end in apostasy, and it would fill the world.14


Hmmmm. Is this a guarantee that our dispensation will not apostatize? Can I eat drink and be merry because I know everyone else will save my dispensation from ruin? How can I reconcile this with all the dire warnings that we are the evillest generation on record?

I think you are overclaiming Nelson's statement. It was descriptive only. The complete restoration was required, he is saying, merely because there had been an apostasy. Nothing in the quoted passage says the apostasy was necessary, only that it was foreseen and that Christ's return would only occur after a restoration.

[creekster]

Given time, I'm sure we would, but the Lord decided to end the world as we know it with a bonfire of unequaled proportions before that happens. This dispensation ain't got time for apostasy - we're going out in a blaze of glory.

Are you sure it will be glory? perhaps ignominy.

[creekster]

I agree that the scripture in 2 Thessalonians 2.3 means that Jesus won't come unless there is first an apostasy, and the "lawless man" comes and sets himself up as God.

If all other dispensations sank into apostate unbelief, why is this dispensation so different? I'm sure all other dispensations thought "this time will be different. We're better than those chumps who came before."

putting aside my belief, this is a good point, as it seems rather clear that other generations thought CHrist's return was nigh.

(yes I relaize generation is not the same as a dispensation, but the point is the same)

[cowboy]

Are you sure it will be glory? perhaps ignominy.

I try to be an optimist when possible.

[Mormon Red Death]

Isn't this referred to as the Last Dispensation?

maybe all the others thought they were the last dispensation

[Indy Coug]

maybe all the others thought they were the last dispensation

That's what multiple prophets have claimed. Then again, this board has successfully disproved or discounted about 98% of what prophets say as personal opinion, heresay, racial bias and dementia.

About the only thing I believe said that the prophet says any longer is their heartfelt expression of gratitude for all the emergency services on call and the coverage and cooperation from radio stations, newspapers, television stations, morse code telegraphers, internet providers and short order cooks.

EDIT: Obviously from 2 Thessalonians, they didn't think they were the last dispensation....

[SeattleUte]

That's what multiple prophets have claimed. Then again, this board has successfully disproved or discounted about 98% of what prophets say as personal opinion, heresay, racial bias and dementia.

About the only thing I believe said that the prophet says any longer is their heartfelt expression of gratitude for all the emergency services on call and the coverage and cooperation from radio stations, newspapers, television stations, morse code telegraphers, internet providers and short order cooks.

EDIT: Obviously from 2 Thessalonians, they didn't think they were the last dispensation....

I consider the Great Apostasy as one of the LDS Church's unfortunate beliefs--a fourth leg, along with the priesthood ban, polygamy/oppression of women, and Lamanites=all Western Hemisphere aborigines, forming an edifice of darkness. Sort of a black hole that sucks up all light that approaches it.

Nothing is more distorting of our self-awareness than belief in a Great Apostasy. Our culture is made up of myriad cultural strands. Christianity represents a major confluence of the strands--it is made up of Greek, Jewish, Egyptian, Persian, of course Roman elements, among others, some of these more important than others.

My complaint is well illustrated by FARMS's assertion that the Great Apostasy occurred with the "Hellenization" of Christianity (Elder Holland has said this too). Well, Paul was a Hellenized Jew, he wrote and spoke Greek, and was educated by Greeks. The entire New Testament was originally written in Greek. Echos of Plato and Aristotle are all through it. The Christianity we love and know is nothing if not Greek.

To illustrate the kind of mischief this nonsense causes, we had a poster on CG who honestly believed that Christ went around Palestine speaking Aramaic except when he quoted the Old Testament, in which cases he recited the Greek Spetuagint (instead of the Gospel authors quoting the Septuagint, the translation which they had nearby on the shelf and with which they were most conversant and loved most, in writing their accounts)! LOL. I don't want to embarrass him so I won't reveal his identity. But it shows how stultifying is a belief in Great Apostasy that this particular poster achieved an astronomical score on the LSAT and will be attending a top 5 law school. Clearly he's not stupid.

I detest "The Great Apostasy." It's like the kooky German belief in Aryanism--chauvenistic nonsense.

I'll stop now. My guess is that the tepid response to this thread is that my old CG friends knew this was coming and they didn't want to get into it again.

[Indy Coug]

I detest "The Great Apostasy." It's like the kooky German belief in Aryanism--chauvenistic nonsense.

To do list: 10/9/2009

Extend discussion of Great Apostasy long enough for SU to work in a Hitler/Nazi reference. --

[byu71]

I am greatful I great bored with posts over three paragraphs and use of big words and phrases.

[wuapinmon]

So we're into a chicken-or-the-egg question about whether we needed Joseph Smith because of the Great Apostasy or whether we needed the Great Apostasy because of Joseph Smith.

Maybe we can throw in some foreordination vs. predestination while we're at it.

[All-American]

I consider the Great Apostasy as one of the LDS Church's unfortunate beliefs--a fourth leg, along with the priesthood ban, polygamy/oppression of women, and Lamanites=all Western Hemisphere aborigines, forming an edifice of darkness. Sort of a black hole that sucks up all light that approaches it.

Nothing is more distorting of our self-awareness than belief in a Great Apostasy. Our culture is made up of myriad cultural strands. Christianity represents a major confluence of the strands--it is made up of Greek, Jewish, Egyptian, Persian, of course Roman elements, among others, some of these more important than others.

My complaint is well illustrated by FARMS's assertion that the Great Apostasy occurred with the "Hellenization" of Christianity (Elder Holland has said this too). Well, Paul was a Hellenized Jew, he wrote and spoke Greek, and was educated by Greeks. The entire New Testament was originally written in Greek. Echos of Plato and Aristotle are all through it. The Christianity we love and know is nothing if not Greek.

To illustrate the kind of mischief this nonsense causes, we had a poster on CG who honestly believed that Christ went around Palestine speaking Aramaic except when he quoted the Old Testament, in which cases he recited the Greek Spetuagint (instead of the Gospel authors quoting the Septuagint, the translation which they had nearby on the shelf and with which they were most conversant and loved most, in writing their accounts)! LOL. I don't want to embarrass him so I won't reveal his identity. But it shows how stultifying is a belief in Great Apostasy that this particular poster achieved an astronomical score on the LSAT and will be attending a top 5 law school. Clearly he's not stupid.

I detest "The Great Apostasy." It's like the kooky German belief in Aryanism--chauvenistic nonsense.

I'll stop now. My guess is that the tepid response to this thread is that my old CG friends knew this was coming and they didn't want to get into it again.

This reminds me of the one girl who didn't want to reveal anybody's identity, so said instead that the person in question was the Senate Majority Leader.

But, let's not waste time. Your accusation is wrong, and if you provide me the quote in question, I will show you why.

[creekster]

I'll stop now. My guess is that the tepid response to this thread is that my old CG friends knew this was coming and they didn't want to get into it again.

Its more like when you are in a group and one person is an uber geek about some topic or another and so everybody avoids that topic KNWOING what will happen when it is raised and then a new guy, who just doesnt know, mentions it. Everybody else rolls their eyes and thinks "great, here it comes . . . again."