Why are chiropractors scam artists?

[YOhio]

Most chronic back pain is bone and nerve, yes. Pain is a required part of my specialty and although I didn't do a fellowship in pain I have probably personally performed 100+ interventional procedures in the last 18 months.

I'll give you a fellowship in pain! :box:

[TexTechCoug]

Too busy writing essays about procedures/surgerons that you obviously don't understand?

FTR, I'm only going from what the PM&R guys taught me. If I'm wrong, I would appreciate you telling me how so.

How many back pain related surgeries or procedures have you done? In your post you come off sounding like an expert, but you statistics about 95% of pain being soft tissue in origin doesn't jive at all with what I saw and treated in clinics and in the OR.

A great deal of the pain is joint related and the splinting you talk about is intended to stabilize the painful site in order to limit movement. This splinting and spasm leads to reduced blood flow, muscular atrophy, contraction of fascia and other chronic changes.

The vast majority of pain procedures are intended to effect nerves that feed facet joints or to reduce nerve root inflammation at the foramen or in the epidural space itself.

For what it is worth I've actually worked with the father of interventional pain management, Gabor Racz, and I am not just passing along what I heard in a conversation with somebody, but whatever. Nice try at insulting me, you must be a real peach to work with.

[SoonerCoug]

The three deadlies are: Crazy politics, crazy health stuff, and crazy religion. They go together.

[jay santos]

I've mentioned my experience a few times in different threads. I experienced what I believe is a fairly common injury (herniated disk causing sciatica) and had what I believe to be a fairly common experience of frustration dealing with health care professionals who all take different approaches and no one seems to know what to do. The docs here on this board I would include in my generalization of professionals who don't appear to really understand the issue.

Sorry docs.

[SoonerCoug]

I've mentioned my experience a few times in different threads. I experienced what I believe is a fairly common injury (herniated disk causing sciatica) and had what I believe to be a fairly common experience of frustration dealing with health care professionals who all take different approaches and no one seems to know what to do. The docs here on this board I would include in my generalization of professionals who don't appear to really understand the issue.

Sorry docs.

It's complicated and there aren't always simple solutions. There are lots of things that can cause back and joint pain. I'm pretty sure I'm the only real expert on this topic among doctors on this board.

[UtahDan]

The three deadlies are: Crazy politics, crazy health stuff, and crazy religion. They go together.

None are evidence based, except when the evidence aids them.

[SoonerCoug]

None are evidence based, except when the evidence aids them.

Todd Akin is a great example of SoonerCoug's Triad, as I will call it from now on.

[clackamascoug]

For the past 30 years I've had more than my share of back issues. Here's what I've found.

A bad Chiropractor will try and take a mile, if you give him a inch. There are Doctors, Lawyers, Contractors, and Mechanics who all do the same thing. It's a person problem, not a profession problem.

My Chiro is Dean Clark, Chiro to the US Olympic Track and Field Team. One of the finest people I've ever met. I can tell when I need a "pop" and I can go in and get one for $60. Once is usually enough.

For my self medication, I've got my Homemedics 360H massage cushion that sits in my lazyboy, and loosens up my muscles. If I need more than that, I had an inverter in the garage, and I hang by my feet and jiggle my body, do sit ups, etc, and more than not, my spine can get realigned from the jostling of the inverted position. Nowadays, little things don't become big things, and if I hurt after a round of golf, I just get a massage in my chair, and hang upside down. Laugh if you will, but for me... it works great.

[SoonerCoug]

Laugh if you will, but for me... it works great.

Realigned. LOL.

[clackamascoug]

Realigned. LOL.

I'm here all week..... Be sure to tip your waitress!

[SeattleUte]

Sure HFN and DDD, I don't know much about back pain but I am sure there are some types of back pain that could be improved with deep massage or "adjustment" so I don't doubt at all that some people benefit from back pain treatment from a chiropractor. There are plenty of smart, reliable people who felt a lot better after seeing a chiropractor and I believe them.

The thing to remember about back and neck pain, though, is that 1. it almost always goes away on its own and 2. it is cyclical so when it's at its worst it can only get better no matter what you do.

Here are the major problems I have with chiros, though.
1. Non-scientific underlying theory of "subluxation" as a health problem that affects the entire body.
2. Aggressive business model with frequent return visits and maintenance visits.
3. Impersonation of a physician without relevant medical training -- patients may put off getting a real medical evaluation if they are seeing a chiro.
4. Preying on chiropractic students. What a nightmare for poor students who are often in for $200,000 before realizing that they have to lie to and manipulate vulnerable and ignorant patients for their business to succeed.
5. Spine x-rays performed and radiation administered with no medical indication and no qualified reader of the x-ray.

That's what comes to mind for now -- I'm sure there's more.

I've witnessed no. 2 a lot.

[jay santos]

Realigned. LOL.

Are you mocking the inversion table? I've always thought about getting one.

From what I understand about my condition of herniated disk/sciatica, it seems like it would help.

Do you disagree?

[SoonerCoug]

Are you mocking the inversion table? I've always thought about getting one.

From what I understand about my condition of herniated disk/sciatica, it seems like it would help.

Do you disagree?

There is not any good evidence that it helps, but I've heard several people share their testimony about it.

[San Juan Sun]

How many back pain related surgeries or procedures have you done? In your post you come off sounding like an expert, but you statistics about 95% of pain being soft tissue in origin doesn't jive at all with what I saw and treated in clinics and in the OR.

A great deal of the pain is joint related and the splinting you talk about is intended to stabilize the painful site in order to limit movement. This splinting and spasm leads to reduced blood flow, muscular atrophy, contraction of fascia and other chronic changes.

The vast majority of pain procedures are intended to effect nerves that feed facet joints or to reduce nerve root inflammation at the foramen or in the epidural space itself.

For what it is worth I've actually worked with the father of interventional pain management, Gabor Racz, and I am not just passing along what I heard in a conversation with somebody, but whatever. Nice try at insulting me, you must be a real peach to work with.

I had asked you to correct me where I was wrong. I don't see anything in your subsequent post that corrected me or contradicts me.

This is all important to me, because as a general surgeon with a significant aspect of my practice being Trauma, I get to deal with a fair amount of LBP. It is not my favorite thing to do, but we do what we do. In my practice, LBP almost always caused by MVC-related strains without any radiographically identified cause, the rest/ice/NSAID/PT regimen works very well.

As far as how many back surgeries I've done, how many have you done Mr. Anesthesiologist? Obviously, aside from a 2nd year Neurosurgery rotation where I was the retractor, I have limited exposure with performing the actual surgery. But I highly doubt that you have significantly more experience than I do. If you do, please describe it for us, and I'll happily apologize.

As far as pain procedures, I have a handful (maybe 10?) of facet injections as a student. Pretty underwhelming experience, I know. Certainly, I have no experience working with the Father of Pain Management, but then again, I've worked under enough "names" to know that association while training under someone would not ensure my own competency. I'm sure Dr. Racz is very good, but you are not Dr. Racz, right?

Am I a peach to work with? I don't know, everyone seems to like me. I don't go around trashing people, behind their back or on the Internet, especially regarding surgeons (whose training and experience far exceeds mine) doing complex procedures that I don't understand. Does that make me a peach to work with? Does posting an admittedly watered-down discussion of LBP (on a forum consisting mostly of lay persons) make me a peach? Would telling a medical colleague that they're wrong, without offering any other point of view, make me a peach? Who then is the peach here?

If I insulted you, my apologies. I never intended to. After all, you replied to me, not vice versa. In my experience, I've been blessed with a great relationship with and admiration for anesthesia, as well as all the other specialties. It has always seemed to help me get along and help my patients get the care they need.

[SoonerCoug]

As far as pain procedures, I have a handful (maybe 10?) of facet injections as a student.

I'd say that there is plenty of crap in allopathic medicine too, especially when it comes to back pain and injections, but at least real doctors usually don't blatantly make shit up.

The latest thing that kills me is these platelet rich plasma and saline injections that are going on out in the community. What a bunch of voodoo. Gag me.