The Official Civil War Thread

[Coach McGuirk]

Was McClellan just a idiot or did he not have the stomach to make war? Despite always having a larger force, he would wait too long to attack, being attacked himself (7 day battles) or even when he could claim victory, he was too cautious (Battle of Antietam). Always asking for more men, he seemed paranoid that he was outnumbered. Were the costs too heavy for him to bear, did he not have any confidence in himself, or was he just a bumbling dolt? I can't figure it out.

[LA Ute]

Was McClellan just a idiot or did he not have the stomach to make war? Despite always having a larger force, he would wait too long to attack, being attacked himself (7 day battles) or even when he could claim victory, he was too cautious (Battle of Antietam). Always asking for more men, he seemed paranoid that he was outnumbered. Were the costs too heavy for him to bear, did he not have any confidence in himself, or was he just a bumbling dolt? I can't figure it out.

I think it was a combination of things. My pet theory (and I have no idea if anyone who knows more than I do about the Civil War shares it) is that McClellan was the military equivalent of a player's coach. He loved his men, and they loved him. Maybe it was too hard for him to send them into battle. That has to be the most difficult thing about being a general. (Think of Eisnehower on the eve of D-Day, knowing he was sending thousands of men to their deaths.) The successful ones get over it, I guess, but I am glad I am not one of them. I don't know that I could.

[wuapinmon]

As to a natural death, check out the 1871 Rio Branco Law in Brazil.

[happyone]

Was McClellan just a idiot or did he not have the stomach to make war? Despite always having a larger force, he would wait too long to attack, being attacked himself (7 day battles) or even when he could claim victory, he was too cautious (Battle of Antietam). Always asking for more men, he seemed paranoid that he was outnumbered. Were the costs too heavy for him to bear, did he not have any confidence in himself, or was he just a bumbling dolt? I can't figure it out.

I think it was a combination of things. My pet theory (and I have no idea if anyone who knows more than I do about the Civil War shares it) is that McClellan was the military equivalent of a player's coach. He loved his men, and they loved him. Maybe it was too hard for him to send them into battle. That has to be the most difficult thing about being a general. (Think of Eisnehower on the eve of D-Day, knowing he was sending thousands of men to their deaths.) The successful ones get over it, I guess, but I am glad I am not one of them. I don't know that I could.

FWIW, my pet theory is that McClellan took too much councel of his fears. He had intel people, ie Pinkerton, reinforcing his preconcieved notions of the enemys order of battle and end strength and that caused him to hesitate when he should have been decisive. I also think there is something in LA Utes theory. He loved his men and they loved him back.

Antietam should have been a cakewalk, if any battle can be described that way - he had Lee's plans for petes sake! but he did not use them effectively.

[Paperback Writer]

FWIW, my pet theory is that McClellan took too much councel of his fears. He had intel people, ie Pinkerton, reinforcing his preconcieved notions of the enemys order of battle and end strength and that caused him to hesitate when he should have been decisive. I also think there is something in LA Utes theory. He loved his men and they loved him back.

Antietam should have been a cakewalk, if any battle can be described that way - he had Lee's plans for petes sake! but he did not use them effectively.

Agree. I would add that McClellan had a resource advantage and wanted to us it to full effect. But it's not easy getting all of those resources arrayed for an offensive. I also think he knew his enemy fairly well and understood that any major fight would come with significant losses especially if he wasn't able to take full advantage of his resouces (so he hesitated). Contrast that with Grant in 1864-65. Grant wasn't enamored of his men and realized that while the North could sustain large casualties, the South could not.

Lee understood that if he waited for McClellan to line up all of his men and cannon and the Union attacked at their choice of location; his army would be crushed. So he attacked first with relentlessness.

[happyone]

While we are discussing Lil Mac - this is not a bad look at Lincolns relationship with McCellan

It tends to be pro Lincoln, but I think it give Mac a fair shake.

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Lincoln-McClellan-Troubled-Partnership-President/dp/0230613497/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1303935264&sr=1-3"]Amazon.com: Lincoln and McClellan: The Troubled Partnership between a President and His General (9780230613492): John C. Waugh: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ei%2B73jUPL.@@AMEPARAM@@51ei%2B73jUPL[/ame]

[Borderline Divine]

Little Mac was a Democrat. He loathed Lincoln. His intellegence from Pinkerton was exagerrated as to the forces he faced. He couldn't grasp the concept that "hurling the invader" south of the Rappohanoc was not a victory. He always cried for more men, horses and materials. There was some talk among his syncophantic staff of him turning the army of the Potomoc around and seizing Washington. He was a martinette. Reading about him has always annoyed the hell out of me.

His written and cable exchanges with Lincoln were infuriating. To paraphrase one: Mac - I cannot attack because my horses are fatigued and sore-tongued. Lincoln: Can you explain to me what your cavalry has done in the past three weeks that would cause any of them to be fatigued and sore-tongued?

Another: Mac - The recent storms make it impossible for my army to move or my guns to be placed. Lincoln: As you are only across the river from the enemy, why would you think they would not experience the same hardship?

But he never moved until he was damn well ready to.

Also Lee had no respect at all for him. After one battle, Lee wrote in his report to Davis "Only McClellan would have hesitated to attack."

[happyone]

Little Mac was a Democrat. He loathed Lincoln. His intellegence from Pinkerton was exagerrated as to the forces he faced. He couldn't grasp the concept that "hurling the invader" south of the Rappohanoc was not a victory. He always cried for more men, horses and materials. There was some talk among his syncophantic staff of him turning the army of the Potomoc around and seizing Washington. He was a martinette. Reading about him has always annoyed the hell out of me.

His written and cable exchanges with Lincoln were infuriating. To paraphrase one: Mac - I cannot attack because my horses are fatigued and sore-tongued. Lincoln: Can you explain to me what your cavalry has done in the past three weeks that would cause any of them to be fatigued and sore-tongued?

Another: Mac - The recent storms make it impossible for my army to move or my guns to be placed. Lincoln: As you are only across the river from the enemy, why would you think they would not experience the same hardship?

But he never moved until he was damn well ready to.

Also Lee had no respect at all for him. After one battle, Lee wrote in his report to Davis "Only McClellan would have hesitated to attack."

All true, but on the plus side, he built the Army of the Potomac into a formidable fighting force. Unfortunately he never used it to its capabilities and lost his job over it, twice.

I think the Peninsula campaign was brilliant in theory and could have very well ended the war in '62.

[wuapinmon]

When I was a kid, there were trenches in the woods near this spot at the top of the hill (to the left):


In 1986, someone bulldozed them to put in a trailer, which is now gone. This is on the southern edge of the Allatoona Gap (now submerged by Lake Allatoona). I wish I could've had a metal detector out there before it all got buried.

The address here is about 4000 Galts Rd. Acworth GA 30102.

[Borderline Divine]

All true, but on the plus side, he built the Army of the Potomac into a formidable fighting force. Unfortunately he never used it to its capabilities and lost his job over it, twice.

I think the Peninsula campaign was brilliant in theory and should have ended the war in '62.

He did greatly improve sanitation and food services to the army of the potomac. He's have probably made a dandy quartermaster. But of all the generals in the civil war, Burnside, Hood, you name him, I think he did less with more than any of them.

EDIT: Well I guess he didn't do worse than Pemberton, who lost his entire army, bag and baggage.

And then he ran against Lincoln in 1865.

Have you read Bruce Catton's 3 book series "The Army of the Potomac'? Brilliant.

[happyone]

When I was a kid, there were trenches in the woods near this spot at the top of the hill (to the left):

...

In 1986, someone bulldozed them to put in a trailer, which is now gone. This is on the southern edge of the Allatoona Gap (now submerged by Lake Allatoona). I wish I could've had a metal detector out there before it all got buried.

The address here is about 4000 Galts Rd. Acworth GA 30102.

Were those part of the defenses of Atlanta?

[happyone]

He did greatly improve sanitation and food services to the army of the potomac. He's have probably made a dandy quartermaster. But of all the generals in the civil war, Burnside, Hood, you name him, I think he did less with more than any of them.

And then he ran against Lincoln in 1865.

Have you read Bruce Catton's 3 book series "The Army of the Potomac'? Brilliant.

Yes and before I read Foote, I thought Catton was THE authority on the Civil War.

Lil Mac was a excellent trainer of troops, he just couldn't bring himself to use them for there intended purpose.

[Borderline Divine]

This takes about 15 minutes to read, but is well worth it. References a lot of books I haven't read nor heard of which I hope to be adding to my Civil War collection soon.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/04/11/966022/-The-Truth-About-the-Confederacy

[Borderline Divine]

Yes and before I read Foote, I thought Catton was THE authority on the Civil War.

Lil Mac was a excellent trainer of troops, he just couldn't bring himself to use them for there intended purpose.

I remember reading a review on Foote's excellent series that said "This project now finished, need not be attempted again."

Did you know he was a novelist before he took on that project?

[LA Ute]

By the way, has anyone else read "Manhunt: The 12-Day Chase for Lincoln's Killer?" It's about the search for John Wilkes Booth after the Lincoln assassination. Great read.

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Manhunt-12-Day-Chase-Lincolns-Killer/dp/0060518499"]Amazon.com: Manhunt: The 12-Day Chase for Lincoln's Killer (9780060518493): James L. Swanson: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51mM4kWE3WL.@@AMEPARAM@@51mM4kWE3WL[/ame]