Sir and Ma'am

[TripletDaddy]

I only do it when my wife's family visits me IN South Carolina; I said, "When they come to visit me." I never said that I expected subordinates (I don't have any) or students to use that.

Someone else in this thread (can't remember whom) expressed frustration that they were not afforded some sort of verbal genuflect whilst visiting Utah.

Also, why would you expect someone that is not of your culture or practice to refer to you as sir or ma'am while visiting you?

[wuapinmon]

Someone else in this thread (can't remember whom) expressed frustration that they were not afforded some sort of verbal genuflect whilst visiting Utah.

Also, why would you expect someone that is not of your culture or practice to refer to you as sir or ma'am while visiting you?

Well, since Tim wrote that, I've reflected on it, and as I said in my PM to you, I am not going to practice that any longer. I like for children to have good manners, but forcing them to use it with me is a bit much, and probably pisses off their parents, now that I've thought about it. Point taken.

[TripletDaddy]

If indeed those terms "cut too close for comfort" because of the negative stereotypes of the South then perhaps those who find it uncomfortable should reevaluate their perceptions. It's not like "sir" and "ma'am" are or ever have been derogatory terms. Let Southerners call each other as they please and don't object to them calling you "Sir" or "Ma'am." It's all an attempt to be civil, something our society could use more of.

you keep repeating my point.

This thread was started by a Southerner lamenting that everyone else doesn't speak in the same manner. This isn't something someone from the East coast or the West coast would lament.

I am aware that Southern culture does not wholly consist of racism and slavery and that racism exists everywhere, not just in the South.

Also, I originally stated that if Southerners want to be surrounded by sirs and ma'ams, then they should simply remain in the South. I don't mind if someone wants to call me sir (I would be puzzled if they called me ma'am), but would be annoyed if someone were offended that I didn't call them "sir." Like you said, let people speak their speaks and stop lamenting that people are not parting the linguistic aisles for you when you travel to their fair lands.

[TripletDaddy]

Well, since Tim wrote that, I've reflected on it, and as I said in my PM to you, I am not going to practice that any longer. I like for children to have good manners, but forcing them to use it with me is a bit much, and probably pisses off their parents, now that I've thought about it. Point taken.

Your mistake is not that you equate "sir" and "ma'am" with good manners, but that you equate the absence of "sir" and "ma'am" with bad manners.

So many Southerners here lamenting that others don't understand their culture and heritage when the real issue is that Southerners seem to not understand the larger environment in which they live.

Just because people don't call you "sir" doesn't mean they have bad manners or that they lack respect. Go ahead and call everyone sir and ma'am as you please. I doubt anyone would take offense and in fact many would likely appreciate it. But why expect everyone else to conform to Southern notions of charm and hospitality....esp is you are also quick to recognize that perceptions of the South (fair or otherwise) are less than hospitable.

[Viking]

Oh, southern california mormon, please enlighten us in the ways of the larger environment.

[pellegrino]

you keep repeating my point.

I think you're just trying to get the last word. We agree that people on both sides shouldn't get bent out of shape about it.

This thread was started by a Southerner lamenting that everyone else doesn't speak in the same manner. This isn't something someone from the East coast or the West coast would lament.

wuap didn't start this thread, and I didn't get a hint lament from 8BR.

I am aware that Southern culture does not wholly consist of racism and slavery and that racism exists everywhere, not just in the South.

Your contributions in this thread have not demonstrated this.

[TripletDaddy]

I think you're just trying to get the last word. We agree that people on both sides shouldn't get bent out of shape about it.


wuap didn't start this thread, and I didn't get a hint lament from 8BR.


Your contributions in this thread have not demonstrated this.

Well, one of my contributions was an express statement that I am aware that Southern culture does not consist entirely of racism. Could there be a less ambiguous way to state this? I am also aware that Southern history and culture definitely includes slavery, so I am not sure of the exact ratio of reality to hyperbole. The truth is somewhere in the middle, I suppose, but you are asserting something that has never been said in this thread. That is, in absolute, that the South is entirely about slavery.

You are correct about 8ball. My mistake.

If you concur that we agree, then again, you are simply repeating what I keep saying.

[Babs]

What you're forgetting is that even lower classes (both in medieval and modern times) referred to each other with these honorific titles, whether they were landed or not. It's a matter of custom, tradition, and civility. I think you said it best when you said that "evokes" the antebellum period. It may well evoke such a period, but that doesn't mean it is used for the express purpose of perpetuating antebellum social castes.

I think if you look up the etymological history you'll find that it wasn't until the 1700s that these titles were used as common courtesy and to designate marital status. At least that's what I found. Up until that time they were reserved exclusively for the landed class. We saw a return to a version (or perversion) of this in the antebellum South, where the titles were used to exclude an entire people rather than a socioeconomic class.

As far as a matter of courtesy goes, my original point was that it's discourteous to misuse the customary titles (specifically to use Miss to a married woman), and it appears that you would agree with that.

[Viking]

I think very highly of parents whose children address me as "Sir" or "Mr." Never heard it in California.

[TripletDaddy]

I think very highly of parents whose children address me as "Sir" or "Mr." Never heard it in California.

why are you hanging out with children?

[pellegrino]

Well, one of my contributions was an express statement that I am aware that Southern culture does not consist entirely of racism. Could there be a less ambiguous way to state this? I am also aware that Southern history and culture definitely includes slavery, so I am not sure of the exact ratio of reality to hyperbole. The truth is somewhere in the middle, I suppose, but you are asserting something that has never been said in this thread. That is, in absolute, that the South is entirely about slavery.

It may not have been said explicitly but the implications of your "The South will rise again" and calling out southerners for flying the stars and bars are quite clear.

If you concur that we agree, then again, you are simply repeating what I keep saying.

Polly want a cracker?

[Babs]

It may not have been said explicitly but the implications of your "The South will rise again" and calling out southerners for flying the stars and bars are quite clear.

oh, come now. Triplet would never suggest the South is just about slavery. There's SEC football, too!

[TripletDaddy]

It may not have been said explicitly but the implications of your "The South will rise again" and calling out southerners for flying the stars and bars are quite clear.

Perhaps clear that those were references to a legitimate part of the South' history. The confederate flag is still a current issue.

You sound like you want to excise any references to them. Your inference is clumsy.

Slavery, racism, and the confederate flag is a part of Southern heritage. Not an entire part, but that should go without saying. However, when white males are lamenting that subordinates are not addressing them properly like they do in the South, it definitely evokes the imagery. Any hyperbole you attach to that observation is entirely your own.

[TripletDaddy]

oh, come now. Triplet would never suggest the South is just about slavery. There's SEC football, too!

And tobacco, cotton, etc. Don't forget tobacco and cotton.

[il Padrino Ute]

oh, come now. Triplet would never suggest the South is just about slavery. There's SEC football, too!

Slavery and SEC football: two things that the South is/was wrong about.