Revenge of the Haoles - BYU vs. Hawaii 2011

[DU Ute]

Listen dickwad, I've given Jake his props when deserved in addition to criticizing when appropriate. Why don't you scroll up a few messages and see what I wrote about Jake. I've also criticized Riley when it was deserved.

You have zero credibility here or on CB. You've become a joke. You simply cannot give a thoughtful analysis of either QB that reflects reality and isn't colored by bias.

Please, whatever happens with Jake, become a Ute fan and take you're idiocy over to their board.

[Non Sequitur]

I don't think this is fair. Jake has cleaned up some aspects of his game since he was benched. He's no where near what his potential is but he seems to be making progress. Regarding his current situation I think Jake is, at least in public, saying and doing the right things. His teammates are saying good things about him so I think that reflects well on what he's doing in practice.

It's probably not fair, but I remember seeing Jake clean it last year after a terrible start. I want to be on the Heaps train. Just seems like the train is derailed more often than it is on tracks.

[CardiacCoug]

If I'm Jake's dad (or mom ) I would tell him to work and study his ass off, get in the best shape of his life, redshirt next season, then try to kick butt for 2 seasons and get drafted.

You only need 1 good season in college to get into the NFL and his junior year he will still have Hoffman and Apo (hopefully) and will show everybody what he can do. Going somewhere else and trying to start over just doesn't seem like a great option to me. His ultimate goal is to get drafted and get a shot in the NFL and I don't think transferring gets him any closer to that.

I guess we'll see though.

[Shaka]

It's probably not fair, but I remember seeing Jake clean it last year after a terrible start. I want to be on the Heaps train. Just seems like the train is derailed more often than it is on tracks.

Jake's problems are consistent with a young QB who probably was given too much too soon. At the beginning of the year we were all supportive of Jake. No one complained about Jake being served up the starting roll in the spring. Things didn't work out as planned and Plan B was instituted.

I had a much better sense of what Riley could do than virtually anyone on any of the relevant boards. I took a lot of flak for my opinions but ultimately I was proven correct. However, I'm not on the Riley or Jake train. I'm on the BYU train. I want both of them to succeed in a way that spells success for the team as a whole. Right now Riley is more effective in the starting role. I'm sure all of us are hopeful that Jake can be more effective at some point.

This poor scheduling stuff is sort of laughable to me. I'm old enough to remember the WAC. BYU's legend QB's beat up on patsies for most of the year. These were really bad teams. So why some like to complain about the competition killing their enthusiasm I'd just like to point out that the schedule this year isn't all that different from our glory years.

[Surfah]

What is your point in this argument? Do you think the coaches should have played Heaps this year because 9-3 is no better than 8-4?

Is there a football coach in America who won't play the guy he clearly feels is better? You point to Heaps 160 rating against bad teams as evidence that he would have been as good as Nelson, but Nelson's rating against bad teams is close to 170 (perhaps negligible, but still better than Heaps), plus he is a legit run threat. No matter how you slice it, Nelson is a slightly more effective passer and a MUCH better runner making him the better QB by a fairly big margin. Again, maybe that doesn't make much difference in a meaningless season, but a coach is always going to play the better player. Coaches don't think in terms of "but 9-3 is the same as 8-4, so it doesn't matter."

That is exactly my point. This season is a W.A.S.T.E. It was over the minute the clock ran out against Texas. That is one of the issues with independence.

And to your second point, are you kidding me? Coaches play inferior players all the time. Including Bronco. Do you not follow BYU football?

[smokymountainrain]

That is exactly my point. This season is a W.A.S.T.E. It was over the minute the clock ran out against Texas. That is one of the issues with independence.

And to your second point, are you kidding me? Coaches play inferior players all the time. Including Bronco. Do you not follow BYU football?

Touche.

Damn.

[Moliere]

Heaps has been King of the 3 and out this year, so it is what it is...

He's also the king of sucking in the redzone. He can move the ball but not score. I'll have to go back and look, but I doubt many if any of his touchdowns have come from within 20 yards, at least none against the "good" competition.

Some of this is on our RBs, who are barely average, but Jake has little touch and no progression which kills him in the redzone.

[Surfah]

At this point, I don't think there's any way we see an open competition going into next year. There may be the typical "every position is up for grabs" type comment from Bronco, but Riley will be the presumptive starter, much like Jake was going into the year. And I think he'll hold onto it, because the real competition isn't lined up in a row next year. There are enough dummies sprinkled between the good games that there's no real threat of a slide that gets him into a pickle.

So where does that put Jake and what his he thinking? Personally, I think going forward his best option is to stay here and take the redshirt. That gives us one year with Riley, and then he's got a clear shot at being the starter headed into his RS Jr. year. I also think Doman and Bronco will pour everything they have into him and he will be given every opportunity -- probably even more of an opportunity than he'd see elsewhere -- to succeed.

However, I think it's tough for a kid to think about what is going to be best going forward, and not focus on what has happened in the past. To me his decision will likely be more about what has happened, not about what could potentially happen going forward. And in his mind, it's going to be hard for him not to think he got screwed. Put yourself in his position and this is what you would be thinking: "I had to deal with a coordinator who by his own admission was struggling mightily, 3/4 of the offense was out of shape, we couldn't run the ball at all, I got pulled right when the schedule went soft and had to watch my backup go out there and run over dummies turning into a hero, and then when I got my chance again, I proved I could have been running over those dummies as well."

That's what going through his head. So even if BYU is the right place for him looking forward, his decision will still likely me made based on the past. And if he does stay here, what happens to him as a redshirt? If I'm him and considering the redshirt, I tell Bronco that if I take the redshirt then under no circumstances am I coming off the redshirt. But what are the chances Bronco will let that happen? So we project ourselves to the point where Riley gets injured again next year, and what happens with Jake? There's no way they let him keep redshirting while Lark goes out there and blows games. Apparently Doman even said yesterday that if he were to RS, he'd still be the backup because he's too good not be involved in the everyday planning. What are the chances the backup won't have to play in a Riley-led year?

If he goes elsewhere, that option is taken off the table, as a coach couldn't burn his redshirt even if he wanted to. If he can guarantee that would happen at BYU, maybe he stays. But I don't think that could be guaranteed, because Bronco has proven that he's a Jerry Sloan-style have to win every battle even if you lose the war type. He's not a Greg Popovich who's going to take a loss or two if he believes it will move his team forward in the end. Is 9-3 better than 8-4 in the grand scheme of things? No, they're both entirely forgettable and either way a season nobody will care about a year from now. As SU said and I hate to agree with, I'd rather play for one great season than a bunch of forgettable ones. But Bronco doesn't have that mentality. Though I don't entirely blame him -- football is just such a short season that it's hard to take a Popovich mentality. Anyway, my point there is the fact that if Jake stays at redshirts, it means in all likelihood he wouldn't even have a shot at two full years as a starter. I think that makes the decision tougher for him.

MG you're beating my drum with a lot more rhythm than I have been able to muster.

I am not trying to be Hsaru-lite. I just really think that Bronco and Doman have bungled things. Locke said it best in his article: "He failed on his own, but his failure was enabled by the coaches who should have protected an asset this valuable."

What MG said about what Heaps must be thinking is exactly how I see that things unfolded. But this began last year when Bronco was too chicken shit to make a decision. As Locke said: "In the fall of 2010 the coaches needed to step in and either announce this was Jake's team without question or sit Heaps and let him mature as a redshirt. By doing nothing they fostered the division in the team. A division that became evident with the lethargic start to this season. The coaches should have known that given a choice, charisma and maturity were always going to win out." Bronco and Doman could have put that division to rest but didn't. In fact, I believe the culture he wants only fosters it.

For the record, I don't blame Riley. He drives me nuts, but I would expect what he has done to be what I'd expect of any backup. When given the shot he maximized his opportunity.

What really irks me is that in Riley, Bronco and Doman were able to cover a multitude of sins. Riley is someone that can manufacture offense on his own when Doman's offense stunk.

I also think that MG's comparison of Bronco to Sloan versus Pop is great. I thought this season was an opportunity given our schedule to bring Jake along. But Bronco opted instead to win one more game. In this world of independence it is BCS or bust and IMO we need someone like Heaps to maximize his potential to be able to get there.

[CardiacCoug]

This poor scheduling stuff is sort of laughable to me. I'm old enough to remember the WAC. BYU's legend QB's beat up on patsies for most of the year. These were really bad teams. So why some like to complain about the competition killing their enthusiasm I'd just like to point out that the schedule this year isn't all that different from our glory years.

Yeah I would like to see how many times in the 80s BYU played 3 teams from power conferences in the same season along with the WAC schedule. Probably it didn't happen that often.

In the early 80s our out-of-conference opponents were teams like Long Beach State and UNLV to go with the WAC schedule.

[jay santos]

MG you're beating my drum with a lot more rhythm than I have been able to muster.

I am not trying to be Hsaru-lite. I just really think that Bronco and Doman have bungled things. Locke said it best in his article: "He failed on his own, but his failure was enabled by the coaches who should have protected an asset this valuable."

What MG said about what Heaps must be thinking is exactly how I see that things unfolded. But this began last year when Bronco was too chicken shit to make a decision. As Locke said: "In the fall of 2010 the coaches needed to step in and either announce this was Jake's team without question or sit Heaps and let him mature as a redshirt. By doing nothing they fostered the division in the team. A division that became evident with the lethargic start to this season. The coaches should have known that given a choice, charisma and maturity were always going to win out." Bronco and Doman could have put that division to rest but didn't. In fact, I believe the culture he wants only fosters it.

For the record, I don't blame Riley. He drives me nuts, but I would expect what he has done to be what I'd expect of any backup. When given the shot he maximized his opportunity.

What really irks me is that in Riley, Bronco and Doman were able to cover a multitude of sins. Riley is someone that can manufacture offense on his own when Doman's offense stunk.

I also think that MG's comparison of Bronco to Sloan versus Pop is great. I thought this season was an opportunity given our schedule to bring Jake along. But Bronco opted instead to win one more game. In this world of independence it is BCS or bust and IMO we need someone like Heaps to maximize his potential to be able to get there.

What do you think Bronco should have done last year? Redshirted him or named him starter before the season?

[Hsaru]

What do you think Bronco should have done last year? Redshirted him or named him starter before the season?

Either. Either would have been a huge improvement over the mess he decided on.

[USUC]

MG you're beating my drum with a lot more rhythm than I have been able to muster.

I am not trying to be Hsaru-lite. I just really think that Bronco and Doman have bungled things. Locke said it best in his article: "He failed on his own, but his failure was enabled by the coaches who should have protected an asset this valuable."

What MG said about what Heaps must be thinking is exactly how I see that things unfolded. But this began last year when Bronco was too chicken shit to make a decision. As Locke said: "In the fall of 2010 the coaches needed to step in and either announce this was Jake's team without question or sit Heaps and let him mature as a redshirt. By doing nothing they fostered the division in the team. A division that became evident with the lethargic start to this season. The coaches should have known that given a choice, charisma and maturity were always going to win out." Bronco and Doman could have put that division to rest but didn't. In fact, I believe the culture he wants only fosters it.

For the record, I don't blame Riley. He drives me nuts, but I would expect what he has done to be what I'd expect of any backup. When given the shot he maximized his opportunity.

What really irks me is that in Riley, Bronco and Doman were able to cover a multitude of sins. Riley is someone that can manufacture offense on his own when Doman's offense stunk.

I also think that MG's comparison of Bronco to Sloan versus Pop is great. I thought this season was an opportunity given our schedule to bring Jake along. But Bronco opted instead to win one more game. In this world of independence it is BCS or bust and IMO we need someone like Heaps to maximize his potential to be able to get there.

This season was just a perfect storm for this disaster. I think the epicenter of it all is this being Doman's first year as an OC. He didn't know what the hell he was doing. The run game was atrocious. Heaps was shaky and scared to make mistakes. And Doman didn't know how to fix it. Apparently he said as much to Brock Huard before the Hawaii game. Perhaps his lack of confidence rubbed off a little on Heaps. Bronco seeing that Doman was in a little over his head, got involved and made some decisions. Bronco doesn't like to meddle in the offense and didn't under Anae. But I think he had to meddle because Doman was a deer in headlights. Bronco was a walk on who worked his ass of as a player and identified with Riley as an underdog working his ass off. There was also the pressure of succeeding during the first year of independence with so much exposure on ESPN. Just my guess.

[jay santos]

Either. Either would have been a huge improvement over the mess he decided on.

From a team perspective, or through a fan perspective who is neutral on Heaps/Nelson, how would we be better off this season if he had done either of those two options and not what he did?

[Hsaru]

From a team perspective, or through a fan perspective who is neutral on Heaps/Nelson, how would we be better off this season if he had done either of those two options and not what he did?

We'd have a veteran Nelson playing well and Heaps would come in as a RS SO. or he would have played poorly and Heaps would be given a chance to definitely beat him in the offseason after a redshirt year. Or Heaps would have been given the full support of the coaches and the players being named the full starter without this half option qb run heavy offense and then the regular offense being run by Heaps in a laughable 2 qb system to start the year that Bronco has reiterated was a huge mistake. Funny how Bronco learning from that mistake is why he said he wasn't going to play Heaps at all during Nelson's games once he was named starter or give him reps with the 1s in practice. Both of these situations seem far superior to what we got.

[woot]

Yeah I would like to see how many times in the 80s BYU played 3 teams from power conferences in the same season along with the WAC schedule. Probably it didn't happen that often.

In the early 80s our out-of-conference opponents were teams like Long Beach State and UNLV to go with the WAC schedule.

While this is probably a good perspective to have, I think it was also true that none of the "mid-majors" were playing decent schedules back then, which isn't really true anymore. As we've watched several non-AQ schools do very well with decent schedules, and subsequently gain admission into the big boy leagues, it only highlights how BYU has gone from perhaps the premier non-AQ school in the nation to one that hasn't been able to do what several other teams have done. BYU hasn't cracked the BCS since its introduction, and doesn't seem to be on the radar of any of the big leagues anymore. In the meantime, Louisville, BSU, TCU, Utah, and Hawaii have done one or both of these, and Houston, SDSU, the service academies, and probably others are in line for spots in AQ conferences.

I'm sure there is a lot of wishful thinking involved, but it's just not nearly as fun to be a fan of a team that isn't relevant. No-name commits show up in news reports with the fans stifling yawn in response, nobody who knows anything about Xs and Os covers BYU sports at all, our rival is at least feigning disinterest in us, and now we don't even have a conference to follow. In the MWC, it seemed that several teams considered us to be their rival, which at least allowed us to be the big fish in a small pond. Now, it seems that BYU plays football with the simple goal of making money. Admittedly, it's very nice to find BYU games on TV so easily, but even the next couple years when the schedule is improved, there still isn't a lot of motivation.

I envy Utah, not because I think the AQ status of the Pac12 is likely to matter for them anytime soon, but rather because they get to play a (relatively) great and consistent schedule, they get to compete for division and conference championships, they get to strategically root for or against their conference mates even if the Utes aren't playing that week, they get to root for individual players to receive all-conference honors, they get to compete for recruits that other schools actually want, and they get to dream of future Rose Bowls. A BYU fan gets to dream of what? Hiring a coach that commands loyalty? The BoT allowing the athletic director to direct the athletics? How things stand now, BYU seems a lot more loyal to ESPN than to the fans, who all seem to wish BYU would swallow some of its pride long enough to take its seat at the adults' table.

It's fun to be the underdog sometimes, but right now it feels like the fans are tolerated at best, instead of being acknowledged as the lifeblood of the organization.

Well that turned into a rant.