The Official Bell Helicopter Armed Forces Bowl Thread

[MarkGrace]

I agree it would be short-sighted to bench a guy with far superior potential (assumption 1) for zero incremental wins (assumption 2). I doubt the coaches shared your assumptions.

Assumption 1 is not an assumption at all, and they certainly shared the opinion, as indicated by their comments.

Assumption 2 is in fact an assumption, and completely unknowable. But that's most of what we argue around here, and I don't think it's a stretch to say this is going to cost us more in the long-run. I think it's pretty easy to look at what's setting up in '13 and think we will bear an ultimately greater cost. But I guess we'll have a better idea when we get there.

[Tone Loc]

After seeing Riley will the entire team into a couple of victories and an ok effort in a losing performance against TCU, the game I'd like to have back is Utah.

With the kind of fire that Riley brings, it would have been a much more interesting game. I don't know who'd win, honestly, with Riley given that the entire team seems to respond quite differently to him than Heaps, but I know who'd lose a rematch vs. Utah with Heaps at the helm again.

He will get his shot at utah next year. Let's hope he brings proves all the doubters wrong. BYU will have a great D and a lot of weapons around him, no excuses.

[jay santos]

Assumption 1 is not an assumption at all, and they certainly shared the opinion, as indicated by their comments.

Assumption 2 is in fact an assumption, and completely unknowable. But that's most of what we argue around here, and I don't think it's a stretch to say this is going to cost us more in the long-run. I think it's pretty easy to look at what's setting up in '13 and think we will bear an ultimately greater cost. But I guess we'll have a better idea when we get there.

Assumption 1 most certainly is an assumption. "Far superior" is a relative comparison. I think the coaches think Nelson's ceiling is higher than you think it is. And Heaps' ceiling is lower than you think it is. And I don't think anyone believes Bronco when he says he thinks Heaps is an NFL QB.

[Viking]

He will get his shot at utah next year. Let's hope he brings proves all the doubters wrong. BYU will have a great D and a lot of weapons around him, no excuses.

I'm extremely excited for 2012. I think Nelson will materially improve his passing, Doman will be able to customize the offense for Nelson even further and we're going to kick some ass next year.

[Shaka]

He will get his shot at utah next year. Let's hope he brings proves all the doubters wrong. BYU will have a great D and a lot of weapons around him, no excuses.

We agree on this. No excuses.

[dabrockster]

It appears everyone is past the QB issue except you.

You spoke to soon...

[MarkGrace]

Assumption 1 most certainly is an assumption. "Far superior" is a relative comparison. I think the coaches think Nelson's ceiling is higher than you think it is. And Heaps' ceiling is lower than you think it is. And I don't think anyone believes Bronco when he says he thinks Heaps is an NFL QB.

The good thing is we don't need to really speculate about what the coaches thinks their respective ceilings are, because with Heaps, they've already told us. Doman said he has the potential to be the best QB in college football, and Bronco said his potential was to be among the very best ever in the program. I've never heard the coaches explicitly state what they think Riley's ceiling is, but almost by definition, on a relative scale, they clearly think Heaps' potential and/or ceiling is far superior. I don't see this an assumption, and I don't know how anybody who has watched the the two can think it is. In fact, no matter where people have fallen on the debate about who should have played, I think very few, if any, have ever thought Heaps potential wasn't considerably greater.

What I think could have possibly happened is that the coaches reassessed the likelihood of reaching those ceilings. But that's a different argument.

[jay santos]

The good thing is we don't need to really speculate about what the coaches thinks their respective ceilings are, because with Heaps, they've already told us. Doman said he has the potential to be the best QB in college football, and Bronco said his potential was to be among the very best ever in the program. I've never heard the coaches explicitly state what they think Riley's ceiling is, but almost by definition, on a relative scale, they clearly think Heaps' potential and/or ceiling is far superior. I don't see this an assumption, and I don't know how anybody who has watched the the two can think it is. In fact, no matter where people have fallen on the debate about who should have played, I think very few, if any, have ever thought Heaps potential wasn't considerably greater.

What I think could have possibly happened is that the coaches reassessed the likelihood of reaching those ceilings. But that's a different argument.

OK, I agree. I was using a definition more like "probable ceiling". You take any minor league pitcher and he has the "potential" to be an NFL QB, I guess.

[il Padrino Ute]

He will get his shot at utah next year. Let's hope he brings proves all the doubters wrong. BYU will have a great D and a lot of weapons around him, no excuses.

Any excuses for a loss to the Utes?

[Surfah]

The good thing is we don't need to really speculate about what the coaches thinks their respective ceilings are, because with Heaps, they've already told us. Doman said he has the potential to be the best QB in college football, and Bronco said his potential was to be among the very best ever in the program. I've never heard the coaches explicitly state what they think Riley's ceiling is, but almost by definition, on a relative scale, they clearly think Heaps' potential and/or ceiling is far superior. I don't see this an assumption, and I don't know how anybody who has watched the the two can think it is. In fact, no matter where people have fallen on the debate about who should have played, I think very few, if any, have ever thought Heaps potential wasn't considerably greater.

What I think could have possibly happened is that the coaches reassessed the likelihood of reaching those ceilings. But that's a different argument.

Grace you'll never win this argument with Jay. This is the guy that says coaching doesn't matter.

[MarkGrace]

Grace you'll never win this argument with Jay. This is the guy that says coaching doesn't matter.

Nothing is ever won around here, we all just argue until our heads are about to explode.

This thing has gotten crazy enough that Jay is saying any minor league pitcher has the potential to be an NFL QB. I played with plenty of minor league pitchers, and all of them had less potential to be an NFL QB than Riley does. And Riley has zero potential to be an NFL QB.

I should just bow out on this stuff, but I'm just in such a bad place with the football team right now, and yesterday only made how I was feeling worse given how patently awful Riley was and the thought that there's nowhere else to go but with him now. He was flat out as bad as anything we've seen all year, and that's it, that's what we have. I'm reading the '12 thread and we're talking about an 8 or 9 win season next year -- it's just a depressing thought right now. Thinking about the next two years gets me as bummed out as I've ever been as a BYU fan in some time. Maybe I should stop and start thinking about how awesome the Jazz are. Oh, wait...

[Surfah]

Nothing is ever won around here, we all just argue until our heads are about to explode.

This thing has gotten crazy enough that Jay is saying any minor league pitcher has the potential to be an NFL QB. I played with plenty of minor league pitchers, and all of them had less potential to be an NFL QB than Riley does. And Riley has zero potential to be an NFL QB.

I should just bow out on this stuff, but I'm just in such a bad place with the football team right now, and yesterday only made how I was feeling worse given how patently awful Riley was and the thought that there's nowhere else to go but with him now. He was flat out as bad as anything we've seen all year, and that's it, that's what we have. I'm reading the '12 thread and we're talking about an 8 or 9 win season next year -- it's just a depressing thought right now. Thinking about the next two years gets me as bummed out as I've ever been as a BYU fan in some time. Maybe I should stop and start thinking about how awesome the Jazz are. Oh, wait...

Right there with you brother.

[Shaka]

Nothing is ever won around here, we all just argue until our heads are about to explode.

This thing has gotten crazy enough that Jay is saying any minor league pitcher has the potential to be an NFL QB. I played with plenty of minor league pitchers, and all of them had less potential to be an NFL QB than Riley does. And Riley has zero potential to be an NFL QB.

I should just bow out on this stuff, but I'm just in such a bad place with the football team right now, and yesterday only made how I was feeling worse given how patently awful Riley was and the thought that there's nowhere else to go but with him now. He was flat out as bad as anything we've seen all year, and that's it, that's what we have. I'm reading the '12 thread and we're talking about an 8 or 9 win season next year -- it's just a depressing thought right now. Thinking about the next two years gets me as bummed out as I've ever been as a BYU fan in some time. Maybe I should stop and start thinking about how awesome the Jazz are. Oh, wait...

MG, even the best QB's have a bad game once in a while. Sometimes that bad game is against crappy competition. In spite of a crappy game he found a way to win. That's a good thing. There's plenty to be happy about if you want to be. If not maybe we can find you some Prozac. You can share some with my friend Surfah.

[hostile]

After seeing Riley will the entire team into a couple of victories and an ok effort in a losing performance against TCU, the game I'd like to have back is Utah.

With the kind of fire that Riley brings, it would have been a much more interesting game. I don't know who'd win, honestly, with Riley given that the entire team seems to respond quite differently to him than Heaps, but I know who'd lose a rematch vs. Utah with Heaps at the helm again.

I'm extremely excited for 2012. I think Nelson will materially improve his passing, Doman will be able to customize the offense for Nelson even further and we're going to kick some ass next year.

I think the U should go off into Pac12 nirvanagasm exclusively and drop the BYU rivalry. I wouldn't mind if we've played Utah for the last time.

[Maximus]

MG, even the best QB's have a bad game once in a while. Sometimes that bad game is against crappy competition. In spite of a crappy game he found a way to win. That's a good thing. There's plenty to be happy about if you want to be. If not maybe we can find you some Prozac. You can share some with my friend Surfah.

has he had one decent game vs any opponents worth noting? IMO Nelson has physical limitations that will prevent consistent success vs any decent defense.