Honor Code vs. Dress Code

[taekwondave]

BYU ought to separate their dress code from their honor code.

Just give people two separate pieces of paper. Or even one piece of paper, divided into two. One includes the honor code, which deals with whatever you think it should deal with (if it were up to me it would only include academic honesty, but that's another matter), and the other part is for the dress code. Include grooming standards on that. Require signatures for both of them.

This would actually go a long way to improving BYU's image as it pertains to "self-righteousness."

Just a thought.

[beefytee]

I don't see how this would make any difference. They are currently split out in checkboxes you have to check separately as "Dress and Grooming Standards" "Residential Living Standards" and "Academic Honesty Policy".

What exactly would having separate signatures do?

[Surfah]

I don't see how this would make any difference. They are currently split out in checkboxes you have to check separately as "Dress and Grooming Standards" "Residential Living Standards" and "Academic Honesty Policy".

What exactly would having separate signatures do?

It would obviously go a long way to improving BYU's image as it pertains to "self-righteousness."

[byu71]

BYU ought to separate their dress code from their honor code.

Just give people two separate pieces of paper. Or even one piece of paper, divided into two. One includes the honor code, which deals with whatever you think it should deal with (if it were up to me it would only include academic honesty, but that's another matter), and the other part is for the dress code. Include grooming standards on that. Require signatures for both of them.

This would actually go a long way to improving BYU's image as it pertains to "self-righteousness."

Just a thought.

I don't get the term "honor code" to begin with. Perhaps the language experts on here can help me.

I could understand if it was called "BYU Standards" or even the "BYU honor code". It could be then seperated from "LDS Standards", because the two aren't the same.

Edit: Nevermind the term "honor code" and explaining it to me. I looked it up on google. The term seems appropriate. I now think I would be satisfied if everyone just called it BYU's honor code and not "the" honor code. It is kind of like "the" church.

[DapperDan]

BYU ought to separate their dress code from their honor code.

Just give people two separate pieces of paper. Or even one piece of paper, divided into two. One includes the honor code, which deals with whatever you think it should deal with (if it were up to me it would only include academic honesty, but that's another matter), and the other part is for the dress code. Include grooming standards on that. Require signatures for both of them.

This would actually go a long way to improving BYU's image as it pertains to "self-righteousness."

Just a thought.

I didn't realize BYU considered its "self-righteous" image a problem. In fact, I thought they were chest-thumpingly proud of it.

[taekwondave]

I know this may seem like a trivial distinction at first glance, but I really think it's the implication that is at the heart of the resistance to this particular aspect of the honor code.

That implication is that not shaving can be compared to breaking one of the LDS "commandments", which is what everything else mentioned in the honor code seems to deal with. The other things on the honor code are considered bad in and of themselves in LDS doctrine, but the dress and grooming standards, by comparison, are only considered bad in the sense that you signed a paper saying you would obey those standards, without any regard to their actual moral nature. Cheating on tests? Bad in and of itself from a moral perspective. Premarital sex and word of wisdom issues? From an LDS doctrinal perspective, also morally reprobate. But not shaving? Not quite. Thus this contributes to BYU's Pharisee-like image that is so repulsive to anybody who has ever laid eyes on the New Testament. I'm not saying BYU CARES that such is their image, but if they did, disconnecting the dress code from the honor code, I believe, would be a step in the right direction.

[Flystripper]

I know this may seem like a trivial distinction at first glance, but I really think it's the implication that is at the heart of the resistance to this particular aspect of the honor code.

That implication is that not shaving can be compared to breaking one of the LDS "commandments", which is what everything else mentioned in the honor code seems to deal with. The other things on the honor code are considered bad in and of themselves in LDS doctrine, but the dress and grooming standards, by comparison, are only considered bad in the sense that you signed a paper saying you would obey those standards, without any regard to their actual moral nature. Cheating on tests? Bad in and of itself from a moral perspective. Premarital sex and word of wisdom issues? From an LDS doctrinal perspective, also morally reprobate. But not shaving? Not quite. Thus this contributes to BYU's Pharisee-like image that is so repulsive to anybody who has ever laid eyes on the New Testament. I'm not saying BYU CARES that such is their image, but if they did, disconnecting the dress code from the honor code, I believe, would be a step in the right direction.

I am glad you put this The Stadium. I think our football players should be able to have beards too! Just imagine how awesome our entire team would look with Bret Keisel's facial hair.

[taekwondave]

I am glad you put this The Stadium. I think our football players should be able to have beards too!

I think your quote is funny, but a couple things: would there have been a better place to start this thread? I really didn't know where it would be best. Maybe the foyer would have been better?

Also, I don't have an opinion on the dress code itself, or the grooming standards that are a part of it, but I do resent the implication that is inevitable when it is presented as a part of the honor code. That is what I am trying to say in this thread. If BYU wants to require guys to shave, I have zero problem with that, but by placing it in the honor code next to things that are considered "sins" in LDS theology is where I take exception. A dress code, even a strictly enforced dress code, I would have no objection to.

[NorthwestUteFan]

I am glad you put this The Stadium. I think our football players should be able to have beards too! Just imagine how awesome our entire team would look with Bret Keisel's facial hair.

He is obviously making up for his years of repression under the Pharasaic/Mullah-ish leadership in Provostan.

This would actually go a long way to improving BYU's image as it pertains to "self-righteousness."

LOL. It goes far deeper than simply that.

[NorthwestUteFan]

I am glad you put this The Stadium. I think our football players should be able to have beards too!

Now that I think of it, the statues of BY at the BYU should also have beards. No Vermont farmer worth his salt would ever be caught seen without one, what with the risk of frostbite in the winter and bugs in the summer and all.

[byu71]

Now that I think of it, the statues of BY at the BYU should also have beards. No Vermont farmer worth his salt would ever be caught seen without one, what with the risk of frostbite in the winter and bugs in the summer and all.

They (the statues) do have BY with a beard, don't they? I have never seen a picture of BY without a beard. It would be hilarious if his statue didn't have a beard.

[Non Sequitur]

I know this may seem like a trivial distinction at first glance, but I really think it's the implication that is at the heart of the resistance to this particular aspect of the honor code.

That implication is that not shaving can be compared to breaking one of the LDS "commandments", which is what everything else mentioned in the honor code seems to deal with. The other things on the honor code are considered bad in and of themselves in LDS doctrine, but the dress and grooming standards, by comparison, are only considered bad in the sense that you signed a paper saying you would obey those standards, without any regard to their actual moral nature. Cheating on tests? Bad in and of itself from a moral perspective. Premarital sex and word of wisdom issues? From an LDS doctrinal perspective, also morally reprobate. But not shaving? Not quite. Thus this contributes to BYU's Pharisee-like image that is so repulsive to anybody who has ever laid eyes on the New Testament. I'm not saying BYU CARES that such is their image, but if they did, disconnecting the dress code from the honor code, I believe, would be a step in the right direction.

I think most people understand that honor codes don't define what behavior is and isn't inherently honorable. It's simply a list of rules with which students agree to observe and for which they pledge to be honor-bound. I'm sure the service academies have there own honor codes which are much different than ours, because they have different circumstances and wish to enforce their rules differently. It has nothing to do with which grooming practices are the most honorable or which curfews are the most honorable. Most people understand that.

That being said, I still hate the idea of the school telling kids where they can and can't live and what they can and can't do when they're off-campus. But that's a whole other issue.

[NorthwestUteFan]

They (the statues) do have BY with a beard, don't they? I have never seen a picture of BY without a beard. It would be hilarious if his statue didn't have a beard.

LOL.

[Flystripper]

LOL.

That hair is way over his collar!

[byu71]

LOL.

Ok, I got to make sure I haven't ever or there isn't a real picture of BY without a beard from the time he joined the church until he died.