The Christmas Bowl

[Jarid in Cedar]

I don't understand the need for a bowl tie this early if this was a likely destination for BYU anyway. BYU isn't going undefeated this year so why the urgency on this? Maybe it speaks to Holmoe's lack of confidence that an at-large bowl-eligible BYU team could swing a bowl invitation? I just don't get it right now.

I think it is reflective to the fact that there are very few "at large" slots in the current bowls. Even ND has a few negotiated options(Gator and Sun?). Basically BYU won't be playing in the Poinsetta if another conference negotiates that slot. the MWC has one guaranteed team, Navy is guaranteed every other year(if eligible) and the Pac-10 took the alternative years.

BYU has to negotiate these tie ins or be left slumming for slots not filled by respective conferences or competing with Notre Dame for the few "at large" slots that exist.

[Paperback Writer]

With the new Amon G. Carter I'll take the copter bowl over these others.

Although I look forward to visiting Amon G. Carter remodeled stadium on TCU's campus in Ft. Worth, I'm not sure when it will be. Next season, maybe I'll make it to the TCU-Colorado St. game. But it won't be for BYU. The BYU-TCU game is scheduled in Cowboys Stadium in Arlington and the Armed Forces Bowl is scheduled in SMU's Gerald Ford Stadium in Dallas. The best game might be BYU-Texas in Austin but getting tickets will be difficult.

2011 BYU games in Texas:
Texas
TCU
Armed Services Bowl

2011 BYU games in Provo:
Utah
Central Florida
Utah St.

Conclusion: The state of Texas has better BYU games than LES.

[Goatnapper'96]

No non-BCS team has ever finished in the top 2 at the end of the regular season. There is no precedent for your statement. Even in 1984, if BYU was released from its Holiday Bowl obligations, it wouldn't have drawn a bid from one of the four major bowls.

BYU was in "consideration" for a BCS bowl in either 2006 or 2007 (help me out here) with two losses Maybe even in both years. To say BYU's bowl outlook falls under the same circumstances today as it did last year is to be in denial. It's not even close.

I think you are in denial if you think an undefeated BYU team will not recieve an invite to a BCS bowl. I don't care what the various by laws and rules state, in practical terms nothing has changed.

[Paperback Writer]

No non-BCS team has ever finished in the top 2 at the end of the regular season. There is no precedent for your statement. Even in 1984, if BYU was released from its Holiday Bowl obligations, it wouldn't have drawn a bid from one of the four major bowls.

BYU was in "consideration" for a BCS bowl in either 2006 or 2007 (help me out here) with two losses Maybe even in both years. To say BYU's bowl outlook falls under the same circumstances today as it did last year is to be in denial. It's not even close.

After the 1984 season, there's more than a good chance that the Fiesta Bowl would have matched 8-3 UCLA against 12-0 BYU instead of an 8-4 Miami team. And that would have been a better bowl then the Cotton bowl where a 7-4 Houston played 9-2 Boston College. An argument could be made that BYU was a more attractive opponent for the Cotton Bowl then Boston College. In my view, there's a very good possibility that BYU plays in the Fiesta or Cotton if it was released from the Holiday Bowl after the 1984 season.

I'm thinking it was BYU's 2007 season where they may have been in the hunt for a BCS bowl. The at-large teams that year were: Kansas 11-1; Georgia 10-2; Hawaii 12-0; and Illinois 9-3. I think BYU would receive the same consideration at a BCS bowl this season if the Cougars went 10-2 and the competition was Illinois at 9-3.

[USUC]

I think you are in denial if you think an undefeated BYU team will not recieve an invite to a BCS bowl. I don't care what the various by laws and rules state, in practical terms nothing has changed.

I think the problem lies in the BCS bylaws. If i understand it correctly, a one loss team from a non-AQ conference who won that conference and is in the top 12 has to get an at large bid over an undefeated BYU.

[Top Ute]

I think you are in denial if you think an undefeated BYU team will not recieve an invite to a BCS bowl. I don't care what the various by laws and rules state, in practical terms nothing has changed.

Top 8, I agree. A BYU team that's viewed as a 2007 Hawaii sequel wouldn't.

That said, BYU's schedule is such that it would be a top 8 team if it went undefeated. But nothing's for sure unless it reaches Top 2, and no non-BCS team has ever attained that distinction in the regular season. Heck, Boise went undefeated in 2008 and had 2006 fresh in everyone's mind and went to the Poinsettia Bowl.

[Top Ute]

After the 1984 season, there's more than a good chance that the Fiesta Bowl would have matched 8-3 UCLA against 12-0 BYU instead of an 8-4 Miami team. And that would have been a better bowl then the Cotton bowl where a 7-4 Houston played 9-2 Boston College. An argument could be made that BYU was a more attractive opponent for the Cotton Bowl then Boston College. In my view, there's a very good possibility that BYU plays in the Fiesta or Cotton if it was released from the Holiday Bowl after the 1984 season.

I'm thinking it was BYU's 2007 season where they may have been in the hunt for a BCS bowl. The at-large teams that year were: Kansas 11-1; Georgia 10-2; Hawaii 12-0; and Illinois 9-3. I think BYU would receive the same consideration at a BCS bowl this season if the Cougars went 10-2 and the competition was Illinois at 9-3.

The Fiesta in 1984 was a good bowl, but not on equal footing as the four major New Year's Day bowls. That didn't happen until Miami-Penn State for the 1986 national championship. And no game in the Fiesta involving BYU that year would have trumped Boston College and Doug Flutie -- only the biggest act in the game that year and fresh off winning the Heisman. BYU-UCLA would have been dwarfed by the Cotton in the lead-up to their respective games. It's not an argument that can realistically be made. No way does the Cotton take BYU ahead of BC that year, either. (It couldn't boot Houston, which was the SWC rep). I'm not sure the Fiesta passes on the defending national champs, either, although I think you gotta consider an undefeated BYU there.

As for BYU-Illinois, mostly in agreement. But Illinois was in consideration because it was the Big 10 No. 2, and the Big 10 No. 1 (Ohio State) was playing in the national title game. If the Rose is the only option available for BYU and Illinois, no way does the Rose pass up on a Big 10 team. If the options are Orange and Fiesta, I'd rate BYU a slight favorite. I'd rate Illlinois a slight fave in NOLA. Also, Hawaii was not an at-large. It was an auto qualifier, although I think an undefeated BYU would likely have been ranked higher. But that wouldn't supersede Hawaii satisfying the tie-in -- they're guaranteed a spot with a top 12 finish. BYU isn't.

BYU's shot at the best possible opponent could have come with a South Carolina-BYU matchup between the only undefeated teams. USC was an independent and gladly would've gone anywhere for a bowl, since it was just the fifth bowl it had ever played in to date, in a locale it had never visited.

[TripletDaddy]

The Fiesta in 1984 was a good bowl, but not on equal footing as the four major New Year's Day bowls. That didn't happen until Miami-Penn State for the 1986 national championship. And no game in the Fiesta involving BYU that year would have trumped Boston College and Doug Flutie -- only the biggest act in the game that year and fresh off winning the Heisman. BYU-UCLA would have been dwarfed by the Cotton in the lead-up to their respective games. It's not an argument that can realistically be made. No way does the Cotton take BYU ahead of BC that year, either. (It couldn't boot Houston, which was the SWC rep). I'm not sure the Fiesta passes on the defending national champs, either, although I think you gotta consider an undefeated BYU there.

As for BYU-Illinois, mostly in agreement. But Illinois was in consideration because it was the Big 10 No. 2, and the Big 10 No. 1 (Ohio State) was playing in the national title game. If the Rose is the only option available for BYU and Illinois, no way does the Rose pass up on a Big 10 team. If the options are Orange and Fiesta, I'd rate BYU a slight favorite. I'd rate Illlinois a slight fave in NOLA. Also, Hawaii was not an at-large. It was an auto qualifier, although I think an undefeated BYU would likely have been ranked higher. But that wouldn't supersede Hawaii satisfying the tie-in -- they're guaranteed a spot with a top 12 finish. BYU isn't.

BYU's shot at the best possible opponent could have come with a South Carolina-BYU matchup between the only undefeated teams. USC was an independent and gladly would've gone anywhere for a bowl, since it was just the fifth bowl it had ever played in to date, in a locale it had never visited.

Thank you for clearly settling what would have happened in 1984.

[Eddie]

I don't understand the need for a bowl tie this early if this was a likely destination for BYU anyway. BYU isn't going undefeated this year so why the urgency on this? Maybe it speaks to Holmoe's lack of confidence that an at-large bowl-eligible BYU team could swing a bowl invitation? I just don't get it right now.

This isn't a demonstration of lack of faith on Holmoe's part.

It is a sign that he's tired of all these dang bowls continuously calling him and begging him to commit. He tried to be nice. He tried to tell them that even if BYU were to sign, unfortunately they would be playing in a BCS game and unable to keep the commitment. But they all want on the BYU train.

Tom finally decided to just sign on with the next caller to get the rest to stop bugging him. I know he feels bad about it, but what else could he have done?

[Paperback Writer]

The Fiesta in 1984 was a good bowl, but not on equal footing as the four major New Year's Day bowls. That didn't happen until Miami-Penn State for the 1986 national championship. And no game in the Fiesta involving BYU that year would have trumped Boston College and Doug Flutie -- only the biggest act in the game that year and fresh off winning the Heisman. BYU-UCLA would have been dwarfed by the Cotton in the lead-up to their respective games. It's not an argument that can realistically be made. No way does the Cotton take BYU ahead of BC that year, either. (It couldn't boot Houston, which was the SWC rep). I'm not sure the Fiesta passes on the defending national champs, either, although I think you gotta consider an undefeated BYU there.

As for BYU-Illinois, mostly in agreement. But Illinois was in consideration because it was the Big 10 No. 2, and the Big 10 No. 1 (Ohio State) was playing in the national title game. If the Rose is the only option available for BYU and Illinois, no way does the Rose pass up on a Big 10 team. If the options are Orange and Fiesta, I'd rate BYU a slight favorite. I'd rate Illlinois a slight fave in NOLA. Also, Hawaii was not an at-large. It was an auto qualifier, although I think an undefeated BYU would likely have been ranked higher. But that wouldn't supersede Hawaii satisfying the tie-in -- they're guaranteed a spot with a top 12 finish. BYU isn't.

BYU's shot at the best possible opponent could have come with a South Carolina-BYU matchup between the only undefeated teams. USC was an independent and gladly would've gone anywhere for a bowl, since it was just the fifth bowl it had ever played in to date, in a locale it had never visited.

The Fiesta Bowl had reached equal footing with the other bowls by 1984. It became a New Year's Day bowl after the 1981 season and matched 9-2 Penn St. against 9-2 USC. The year before, it matched 9-2 Penn St. against 9-2 Ohio St. Name programs were willing to play in the Fiesta Bowl in 1984 and it was certainly on the same footing as the Cotton Bowl; especially in years when the SWC premier program (Texas) was not highly ranked.

In 1984 - the main story late in the season in college football was undefeated BYU. Morning talk/news shows were discussing if BYU deserved the #1 ranking. There was far more talk about BYU's #1 ranking and whether that was deserved then Boston College and Doug Flutie. There's no way a crappy Houston team playing against Heisman trophy winner Doug Flutie gets more acclaim then BYU-UCLA. Even with Houston-BC, the big story on New Year's Day was OU-Washington and whether the Sooners could lay claim to the #1 ranking if they beat the Huskies. Flutie playing on New Year's afternoon was an afterthought compared to OU-Washington. And BYU-UCLA or even BYU-Houston would have shared the spotlight with OU-Washington since the games would detemine the national champion. And thinking that the Fiesta somehow takes an 8-4 Miami team over a 12-0 BYU is somewhat delusional. In 1984, Miami was thought to be a one-hit wonder. The Canes had not reached dynasty status at that point. They had lost their HC after upsetting Nebraska on their home field in the Orange Bowl and there was a lot of debate on whether the Canes could reach that kind of success again under Jimmy Johnson (who was also unproven at that point after coaching Oklahoma St.)

I state again, that BYU could very well have been invited to the Fiesta or Cotton Bowls after the 1984 season. An undefeated BYU was a much bigger story then BC/Doug Flutie. The game would have had national championship implications along with the Orange Bowl (OU-Washington).

[Top Ute]

The Fiesta Bowl had reached equal footing with the other bowls by 1984. It became a New Year's Day bowl after the 1981 season and matched 9-2 Penn St. against 9-2 USC. The year before, it matched 9-2 Penn St. against 9-2 Ohio St. Name programs were willing to play in the Fiesta Bowl in 1984 and it was certainly on the same footing as the Cotton Bowl; especially in years when the SWC premier program (Texas) was not highly ranked.

In 1984 - the main story late in the season in college football was undefeated BYU. Morning talk/news shows were discussing if BYU deserved the #1 ranking. There was far more talk about BYU's #1 ranking and whether that was deserved then Boston College and Doug Flutie. There's no way a crappy Houston team playing against Heisman trophy winner Doug Flutie gets more acclaim then BYU-UCLA. Even with Houston-BC, the big story on New Year's Day was OU-Washington and whether the Sooners could lay claim to the #1 ranking if they beat the Huskies. Flutie playing on New Year's afternoon was an afterthought compared to OU-Washington. And BYU-UCLA or even BYU-Houston would have shared the spotlight with OU-Washington since the games would detemine the national champion. And thinking that the Fiesta somehow takes an 8-4 Miami team over a 12-0 BYU is somewhat delusional. In 1984, Miami was thought to be a one-hit wonder. The Canes had not reached dynasty status at that point. They had lost their HC after upsetting Nebraska on their home field in the Orange Bowl and there was a lot of debate on whether the Canes could reach that kind of success again under Jimmy Johnson (who was also unproven at that point after coaching Oklahoma St.)

I state again, that BYU could very well have been invited to the Fiesta or Cotton Bowls after the 1984 season. An undefeated BYU was a much bigger story then BC/Doug Flutie. The game would have had national championship implications along with the Orange Bowl (OU-Washington).

The Fiesta had never decided a national championship up until 1986, therefore, it is impossible to say it was on equal footing as the other four major bowls in 1984 -- unless you consider a matchup of conference also-rans as attractive as a matchup of conference champions. You're just wrong on this one. It was the Chik-Fil-A or Outback Bowl of the West Coast. And no one would ever try and put that bowl on the same level as the four major bowls then or today.

I'm not going to convince you on Flutie otherwise, but I know this: If I've seen Flutie's pass against Miami a thousand times. I might have seen 1984 BYU highlights/mentions maybe 50 times. The story, player, game, moment and personality of the 1984 season was Doug Flutie.

That said, if you can provide documentation from media of the day (I'll even help you out here -- the Deseret News' online archives go all the way back to the 1800s) that Cotton and/or Fiesta bowl reps watched BYU play, I'll readily concede it was a possibility that BYU could have played in either of those games. Without it, it's just wishful thinking that BYU could have been invited to one of those games.

[LA Ute]

I don't think the debate over BYU's 1984 NC will die off until no one is still alive who was living in that year. And maybe not even then.

[Top Ute]

I don't think the debate over BYU's 1984 NC will die off until no one is still alive who was living in that year. And maybe not even then.

I'm lost ... where did 1984 BYU and its national championship ever enter the discussion?

[Donuthole]

I'm lost ... where did 1984 BYU and its national championship ever enter the discussion?

Here.

[LA Ute]

Here.

Here.

FTFY.