Ranking Utah

[UtahDan]

If that is the case - and again, it may not be - I would worry about Utah's tendency to start sluggish and finish strong throughout the course of a year. With a BYU game up front, that's bad juju.

I actually think that is a good reason not to play it for a couple years. But then again, you can have an early loss and still go to a BCS game if you win the conference. An early loss for BYU takes them out of the running for that. This is something for BYU to consider as well.

[WashingtonCoug]

But the type of player(s) BYU targets rarely overlaps with Utah's. Would BYU start recruiting "Ute prospects" simply on the basis of the Cougars having a better perceived shot at a BCS game?

I'm not saying they'll keep with Ute prospects. I'm saying they'll compete with other PAC-10 schools for more prospects. In the past these schools said come play for us. It's easier to make it to the BCS in the MWC. If Utah gets lost in the middle of the PAC-10 it would go a long ways in saying being in a BCS conference is not an advantage. Utah did it twice in the MWC, but when they moved to the PAC-10 they couldn't even sniff the BCS bowls.

[Surfah]

The MWC and Pac 10 this year are not remarkably different at positions 1-3 especially with USC having been kicked in the teeth. It is the rest of the conference that is quite a bit tougher in the Pac 10. The MWC is not now, nor will it be with Utah gone, a conference anyone should win every year. I think it will continue to be a log jam at the top with the BSU/TCU/BYU games with each other being the ones that decide who is champ.

That last part is much less true in the Pac 10. The middle to bottom teams have a much greater chance to knock off a top team if there is such a thing as a top team. One of the pre-season rags, I think it was Phil Steele, said that the Pac 10 is the hardest to predict because it has more parity than any other conference.

I don't disagree. I do think that Oregon and USC are still 1 and 2 clearly. 3-10 is more muddled. And that's where the Utes sit. I think 5th place is realistic for them. In fact I think that's a good season for them.

[Uncle Ted]

Let's make it to a BCS game first before we start saying it would be easier to do at BYU.

With 12 teams the PAC may (I repeat may) start getting two teams into BCS games, which is somehting they haven't accomplished since like 2003.

Something a little off subject but nice to think about... If BYU is invited and accepts to backfill the Big 12 North then they may have a good possibility of playing in BCS bowls in the future. In the Big 12, BYU would need to beat ISU, Kansas, KSU, Mizzou, and some other backfill team to go to the conference championship game. Given that BYU's record against Big 12 teams is 8-2 and the Big 12 North division is the weaker of the two I believe that BYU would have a good shot at playing the conference championship more often than the Utes get to play in their new conference championship game. Once in the conference championship they will be one game from a BCS bowl and most likely face either UT or Oklahoma. BYU's record against each of these teams is 2-0. If BYU loses the conference championship then it may be looking at playing at the cotton bowl at least which isn't bad either. Of course, BYU has to get invited to the Big 12 first.

[beelzebabette]

I don't disagree. I do think that Oregon and USC are still 1 and 2 clearly. 3-10 is more muddled. And that's where the Utes sit. I think 5th place is realistic for them. In fact I think that's a good season for them.

I was very pleased in school when I got a C+ knowing I'd achieved an above-average term.

[Surfah]

I was very pleased in school when I got a C+ knowing I'd achieved an above-average term.

I think Utah is going to have to alter their expectations. Winning the MWC was a worthy goal. And not meeting that goal was deserving of disappointment. However, I don't know that you can reserve that same level of disappointment if Utah doesn't compete for the Pac 10 crown each year. Are Utah fans going to be content with the Holiday and LV Bowls most years? If not, RES may start emptying again as quickly as it filled back up.

[Pheidippides]

Could be, but because of the unfairness of the BCS, an early season loss as a member of the PAC10 isn't as damaging as when Utah plays in the MWC.

Of course, Utah has no trouble getting prepared for the rivalry game, so I don't see how that would ever change.

I actually think that is a good reason not to play it for a couple years. But then again, you can have an early loss and still go to a BCS game if you win the conference. An early loss for BYU takes them out of the running for that. This is something for BYU to consider as well.

This is right, of course. And Utah does always get motivated for the rivalry game - I'm not talking about that. What I'm talking about is discipline and playing ability. Utah is the team that almost loses to freakin' San Jose State early and then later in the season would give the New England Patriots a run for their money. I have to point to coaching on that one (not that I think Whit is a bad coach - I think he's quite good).

[Hot Lunch]

So what happens if Utah gets into the Pac-10 and can't hang at the top? Could this actually give BYU an advantage in recruiting. It may be easier to reach a BCS bowl in the MWC for BYU than for Utah in the PAC-10.

Not really. You have to remember that even now, Utah and BYU are only going head to head on 2 or 3 recruits a year. Utah has changed their recruiting style over the past couple of years. I only see them going head to head in the future if there is a big time kid coming out of the state of Utah.

[il Padrino Ute]

This is right, of course. And Utah does always get motivated for the rivalry game - I'm not talking about that. What I'm talking about is discipline and playing ability. Utah is the team that almost loses to freakin' San Jose State early and then later in the season would give the New England Patriots a run for their money. I have to point to coaching on that one (not that I think Whit is a bad coach - I think he's quite good).

You make a fair point that the Utes tend to play at the level of their competition, especially early. That said, I think KW is aware that sleep walking any week while in the PAC is unacceptable and will have his team ready to play. This is going to be a challenge for KW and I think he's up to it.

The big thing that will change for Utah - as I see it - will be depth. Being in a conference that is considered to be better will help the Utes recruit kids that wouldn't consider Utah because of the MWC affiliation. I'm not saying that they'll get everyone, but they will get some. That will help Utah when it comes to playing games because there won't be as much of a drop in talent between the ones and twos.

All the zoots who jumped on the bandwagon after the '03 season will need to temper their expectations. As for myself, because of KW, I think the Utes finishing in the top 5 of the PAC will happen much more often than finishing lower.

[Hot Lunch]

Looking forward, I can see Utah targeting some of the BYU type players. I think they will start to overlap more than they did in the past. Utah has the hand up in the state of Utah recruiting given that a recruit can now stay clsoe to home and play in a BCS conference. That might be more tempting to a Timpview or Bingham graduate than it used to be when BYU/Utah were in the same conference and playing at about the same level.

Why would they do this? Utah is doing just fine with the type of kids they are recruiting. I have to say that Utah's team is more athletic that BYU's team. They will need athletes to win in the Pac-10. I don't see Utah starting to recruit the type of players that BYU is recruiting. I also think that you will see less and less missionaries in Utah's program.

[UtahDan]

I think Utah is going to have to alter their expectations. Winning the MWC was a worthy goal. And not meeting that goal was deserving of disappointment. However, I don't know that you can reserve that same level of disappointment if Utah doesn't compete for the Pac 10 crown each year. Are Utah fans going to be content with the Holiday and LV Bowls most years? If not, RES may start emptying again as quickly as it filled back up.

I don't think it is too much different than it is now in that you just have to do something special every few years to keep hope alive. Utah fans didn't mind 2009 because of 2008. So what Utah needs to do to keep the fans coming is to be in the top two or three every couple years and maybe most importantly really compete when we have the horses to do it. You also can't be anyone's door mat. If we are sitting here 10 years from now and Utah has beat USC once or not at all and finished no better than third then maybe, maybe support will erode. But going to the Rosebowl just once in that time period keeps hope alive. Finishing in the top two keeps hope alive. Winning bowl games keeps hope alive.

It is always about expectations. No question we need to lower ours, but like I say you don't have to exceed them too often. If I may digress, that is the problem BYU has had. Sure it has won a lot of conference championships but fans expect BYU to get to a BCS game or at least win most of its bowl games. I think from a fans perspective it has to feel like you are always falling just short. Going to just one BCS game, win or lose, would do wonders for the psyche if the program and the fans.

[Solon]

I don't think it is too much different than it is now in that you just have to do something special every few years to keep hope alive. Utah fans didn't mind 2009 because of 2008. So what Utah needs to do to keep the fans coming is to be in the top two or three every couple years and maybe most importantly really compete when we have the horses to do it. You also can't be anyone's door mat. If we are sitting here 10 years from now and Utah has beat USC once or not at all and finished no better than third then maybe, maybe support will erode. But going to the Rosebowl just once in that time period keeps hope alive. Finishing in the top two keeps hope alive. Winning bowl games keeps hope alive.

It is always about expectations. No question we need to lower ours, but like I say you don't have to exceed them too often. If I may digress, that is the problem BYU has had. Sure it has won a lot of conference championships but fans expect BYU to get to a BCS game or at least win most of its bowl games. I think from a fans perspective it has to feel like you are always falling just short. Going to just one BCS game, win or lose, would do wonders for the psyche if the program and the fans.

The problem with these discussions is that they assume that past results will indicate future performance. Let's face it; the schools are on different competitive trajectories right now (for better or worse, unfair or fair). So, we might be able to make decent predictions about how the two teams will do in the next 2-3 years (1-2 years of Utah being Pac-12 member), but I think the "year-in, year-out" predictions rely too heavily on contemporary circumstances. Things are going to be really different 5-7 years from now.

[KillerDog]

I think Utah will be competitive right from the start and will be a perrenial top 3 in the Pac-10. The reason? I think winners win and losers lose. Utah is a winner who has gotten used to winning. The players believe they are good and the coaches believe they can win. Also, the gap between the AQ conferences and the non-AQ conferences is in the worst teams, not in the best teams. Utah, as one of the best MWC teams, is as good as the top teams from the Pac.

[Pheidippides]

All the zoots who jumped on the bandwagon after the '03 season will need to temper their expectations. As for myself, because of KW, I think the Utes finishing in the top 5 of the PAC will happen much more often than finishing lower.

I agree with this. I think the real question is whether or not the fans are prepared for it. But I think Utah is a perennial bowl team in the PAC as much as they were in the MWC - it's just a matter of which bowl.

[Jarid in Cedar]

I think Utah will be competitive right from the start and will be a perrenial top 3 in the Pac-10. The reason? I think winners win and losers lose. Utah is a winner who has gotten used to winning. The players believe they are good and the coaches believe they can win. Also, the gap between the AQ conferences and the non-AQ conferences is in the worst teams, not in the best teams. Utah, as one of the best MWC teams, is as good as the top teams from the Pac.

This is the best point. Utah is committed to winning and putting a competitive product on the field. I don't think you can say the same about all schools.