The Big 12 expansion groundswell

[tooblue]

That's fine, but you sure come across as defensive.

I haven't been following all of this very closely but having read the last couple pages of this thread I would replace the word defensive in your post with frightened.

While I agree that it was not overt or conscious bigotry per se that resulted in BYU not being a part of the PAC 12 discussion, having spent the past three years in pursuit of my Masters degree among some exceptionally liberally minded individuals, the types one would find in abundance at Berkley etc., it is very clear that it is pure, abject fear.

[OrangeUte]

I'm a Ute fan, but I find BYU as an independent to be an exciting venture. Given the uncertainty of the future of college football, I understand the concern about being "in" a league with other "haves". That said, I hope things quiet down and the SEC stays at 12, the Big 12 figures itself out, and Notre Dame and BYU continue football independence. It gives 2 religious fan bases a better chance of seeing their team play, and it also is exciting to see if they can come up with good schedules year in and year out (moreso BYU, admittedly). I learned about byu independence a month or so before it happened and thought it was ballsy as hell. I still do.

After saying all that, I'll contradict myself. If the big 12 keeping aTm and adding BYU will keep the super conferences away from CFB, then consider me a fan of BYU joining the big 12. I hope ND doesn't join - that just seems weird to me.

[Color Me Badd Fan]

http://www.theupsetblog.com/2011/08/....html?spref=tw

This is an interesting article. My thought on it is that BYU isn't so much trying to model itself after ND as it is trying to discern ND's intent. Last summer everyone thought we were on the verge of a PAC 16 and ND didn't blink when the pressure was on it as it appeared that dominoes were falling all around it.

If ND were to join the Big 10, it would have to do so on the Big 10's terms. The Big 10 had three big time college football powers last summer and now it has four. The Big 10 probably feels that they can get along just fine without ND, and they're right.

Just because it didn't happen last summer, doesn't mean that super conferences won't happen. ND may feel that the next shoe to drop is some of the northeast Big East teams capitulating and joining the Big 10. It's easy to see UConn, Syracuse, Pitt and Rutgers (I think the Big 10 could peel off BC from the ACC, in lieu of one of these teams). If the Big 12 disintegrates during this time as the Pac and Sec swallows it up Notre Dame's would be forced to join the Big 10 at that point because the Big East basketball conference would be severely weakened.

So the Big 12 option may not sound too bad to ND. Rather than being locked into a conference that's rich with TV sets but poor on talent and being forced to tow the conference line, ND can get into the conference that contains the richest recruiting grounds in the country-- Texas--and it would be a conference where it could call a lot of its shots. Additionally, I think ND could keep most of it's rivalries because I could see the conference only requiring seven conference games.

When I hear about something big being attempted, I could see the Big 12 pulling the Michael Corleone move-- get ND in the fold and then pull in six more teams in the process. They're the first ones to form a super conference. If Pitt is under discussion, then why wouldn't they try to pull in other Big East teams? Couldn't they have a Big 12 East and a Big 12 West? Under this highly speculative scenario, could the other six teams be BYU, Pitt, UConn, Syracuse and two other schools (TCU, Louisville, West Virginia, Air Force)?

[Green Monstah]

This is well stated. However, in case you've missed it, my point has been that the academic communities in Berkeley, Palo Alto, Los Angeles, Seattle, Austin, Norman, And Lawrence are not so difference from one another. Hell, I've known many members of the academic communities at BYU and Utah and they are similar to one another and those places. The difference is that the academic communities have the power at the universities other than BYU but LDS general authorities run things at BYU. We'll see if I'm right that this will keep BYU out of the Big 12 just as it did the PAC.

That sounds like backpeddling to me.

[Color Me Badd Fan]

Uh, my citation to U.S. news was a way to address you on your terms. The U.S. news rankings are the exclusive basis for BYU fans' belief that BYU academics are superior to Utah's (but the difference in U.S. News rankings is not that great). What else? SAT scores? We all know state law skews those at public universities, extremely at Utah. Besides, I don't accept BYU's at face value. The mother is not known to value truth above an image it strives to project.

Apparently South Carolina state law skews SAT scores less than Utah's state laws.

State law lowering SAT scores for Utah, I think I've heard everything now.

[SeattleUte]

Help what?

Look, I've been saying this forever. I was the first to say this about the Pac in the early Cougarboard years. There was a time when no BYU fans believed me about the Pac. So, if I'm right that the problem recurs with the Big 12 how is it not helpful for me to correctly identify it?

[SeattleUte]

Apparently South Carolina state law skews SAT scores less than Utah's state laws.

State law lowering SAT scores for Utah, I think I've heard everything now.

If you don't accept that state law affects Utah's SAT scores I can't help you.

[falafel]

Look, I've been saying this forever. I was the first to say this about the Pac in the early Cougarboard years. There was a time when no BYU fans believed me about the Pac. So, if I'm right that the problem recurs with the Big 12 how is it not helpful for me to correctly identify it?

helpful to whom?

[tooblue]

helpful to whom?

He wishes to be helpful to those in academia that are fearful of Mormons, mostly because they are woefully ignorant.

[Green Monstah]

Look, I've been saying this forever. I was the first to say this about the Pac in the early Cougarboard years. There was a time when no BYU fans believed me about the Pac. So, if I'm right that the problem recurs with the Big 12 how is it not helpful for me to correctly identify it?

Thanks for your help, SU. Your stance is clear and we understand it perfectly.

[San Juan Sun]

Look, I've been saying this forever. I was the first to say this about the Pac in the early Cougarboard years. There was a time when no BYU fans believed me about the Pac. So, if I'm right that the problem recurs with the Big 12 how is it not helpful for me to correctly identify it?

LOL. I love the line of thought here. I truly appreciate your art of saying things that are wrongheaded and inflammatory, and then trying to defend it rationally. Perhaps you do this to amuse yourself (i.e. you like the challenge) and you do it very well. My hat is off to you.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

Look, I've been saying this forever. I was the first to say this about the Pac in the early Cougarboard years. There was a time when no BYU fans believed me about the Pac. So, if I'm right that the problem recurs with the Big 12 how is it not helpful for me to correctly identify it?

What do you think about New Mexico as a dark horse B12 candidate?

[doctorcoug]

Uh, my citation to U.S. news was a way to address you on your terms. The U.S. news rankings are the exclusive basis for BYU fans' belief that BYU academics are superior to Utah's (but the difference in U.S. News rankings is not that great). What else? SAT scores? We all know state law skews those at public universities, extremely at Utah. Besides, I don't accept BYU's at face value. The mother is not known to value truth above an image it strives to project.

The US News "rankings" are worthless. The last time I looked at them was when I was a sophomore at BYU. When I saw "perceived prestige" I puked. That same feeling overwhelms my bowels whenever I see a post from you.

[TripletDaddy]

I would like to make one comment, though, in the hope it's helpful. There are some BYU fans of the CB type (I haven't seen them here; Dick Harmon's one of them) who seem to think the PAC-12 surveyed the Western college football landscape and said, "Whom should we consider? BYU or Utah? We'd really like to take BYU, but they won't fit, so we'll take Utah."

I'm caricaturing that view a little, but that is really not the way it went down. BYU was never in the discussion, according to all the information I've had.

this is not helpful at all given that nobody was discussing the scenario by which Utah was invited to the PAC.

Further, it is also unhelpful because it is inaccurate. As SeattleUte, Tom Holmoe and others have pointed out, BYU was and has previously been in the discussion, it just has likely never been a viable candidate or a likely pick.

Moran.

[jay santos]

BYU watching to see what Notre Dame does is about the dumbest thing I've heard in this whole thing. I hope in two years when Notre Dame joins a super conference and reschedules their game with us to September, that we don't act all pissed off at ND for breaking the promise we had that we were a package deal.