Mariners

[Green Monstah]

He already will go down as an all-time great. But I agree that his stature would be greater if we played for a larger market/winner (same with Felix). Of course that doesn't have anything to do with what we've been discussing in the last few exchanges...

"Ichiro...All-time great...." Marginal HOFer. Listen if you think infield singles are very valuable, I'm happy for you. The problem I have is that his approach, I'd imagine (not being a Mariner's fan, I didn't see him or drool over every single slow roller he legged out) also leads to a lot of ground outs, fielder's choice where lead runner is out and/or double plays.

I've watched Ichiro swipe bags and thought, "that's awesome." I've seen him throw guys out tagging from second on fly outs and have been blown away. At the plate, he's unexciting and overappreciated (particularly by Mariner's fans). He's the anti-Junior at the dish (for better or worse). I realize that a leadoff hitter's main objective is to find a way on base and set the table, but as you mention, he was not an all-time great in that department.

[MarkGrace]

"Ichiro...All-time great...." Marginal HOFer.

Marginal HOFer is HOFer, which is baseball's definition of the all-time greats.

Listen if you think infield singles are very valuable, I'm happy for you. The problem I have is that his approach, I'd imagine (not being a Mariner's fan, I didn't see him or drool over every single slow roller he legged out) also leads to a lot of ground outs, fielder's choice where lead runner is out and/or double plays.

Of course I think they're valuable, everyone thinks they're valuable. There's an obvious disconnect between your first and second sentences, which is probably what has led to your erroneous listing of walks/hits in terms of value.

I've watched Ichiro swipe bags and thought, "that's awesome." I've seen him throw guys out tagging from second on fly outs and have been blown away.

He was very exciting in that regard. And those plays also have value.

At the plate, he's unexciting and overappreciated (particularly by Mariner's fans). He's the anti-Junior at the dish (for better or worse). I realize that a leadoff hitter's main objective is to find a way on base and set the table, but as you mention, he was not an all-time great in that department.

I think even M's fan realize some of his flaws as a leadoff guy (though I disagree that he's unexciting at the plate). That said, I've already acknowledged that (heck, I was the one that brought it up) and am uninterested in that discussion given my agreement -- I was simply arguing your theoreticals, which I find faulty.

[SeattleUte]

Trades like this are very hard on children. This kind of thing gives them an initial taste that humans themselves have reptilian tendencies. He's our god Ichiro, then poof, he's a Yankee, and neither the Mariners nor Ichiro feels bad about it. My 6 year old daughter looked at me with a stricken face, "he's traded forever?"

[Green Monstah]

Marginal HOFer is HOFer, which is baseball's definition of the all-time greats.



Of course I think they're valuable, everyone thinks they're valuable. There's an obvious disconnect between your first and second sentences, which is probably what has led to your erroneous listing of walks/hits in terms of value.



He was very exciting in that regard. And those plays also have value.



I think even M's fan realize some of his flaws as a leadoff guy (though I disagree that he's unexciting at the plate). That said, I've already acknowledged that (heck, I was the one that brought it up) and am uninterested in that discussion given my agreement -- I was simply arguing your theoreticals, which I find faulty.

There are valueless singles. That's indisputable. The value of his approach is further diminished by the negative that results (leaving Runners hanging; failing to drive in a runner in scoring position; GIDP). I think we'll need to agree to disagree, however.

[MarkGrace]

There are valueless singles. That's indisputable.

This is just a silly statement, especially for one who places so much value on OPS, as you allegedly do. Also, there is no such thing as a non-productive single, as you also previously claimed. A single is by definition some manner of offensive productivity.

The value of his approach is further diminished by the negative that results (leaving Runners hanging; failing to drive in a runner in scoring position; GIDP).

Without any numbers to support this conclusion, all you're doing is making stuff up on what you think his approach should have produced, not what his approach actually produced. Unless you having something substantive to offer here, it's impossible to claim that any potential negatives outweighed the positives.

Also, none of these support your silly hierarchy of hits/walks either.

[MarkGrace]

7 straight.

[MarkGrace]

Felix 2 hit shutout of the yanks on 101 pitches. Guy has been on fire lately and could work his way back into another cy young conversation.

[HuskyFreeNorthwest]

Perfect night for baseball in the Puget Sound. Devil Rays are going down! Is something I would be saying if I cared. I am just praying it isn't a pitching duel.

[Babs]

Perfect night for baseball in the Puget Sound. Devil Rays are going down! Is something I would be saying if I cared. I am just praying it isn't a pitching duel.

dork.

[MarkGrace]

Walkoff single with two outs in the 9th. the rally shirts worked!

[scottie]

King Felix perfect through 8 innings against the Rays.

[YOhio]

Felix is an inning away from a perfect game against the Rays.

[MarkGrace]

I was hoping no one would say it in this thread. F****** baseball filler fans!

[YOhio]

I was hoping no one would say it in this thread. F****** baseball filler fans!

Sheesh. You don't have to be a baby about it.

[YOhio]

You can watch it here:

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?co...6996728727-996