Utah's next coach

[LA Ute]

Could you kindly explain why if Utah is so attractive why its last two coaches searches produced Jim Boylen and Ray Giacolletti? I do believe you like to reference history as an indicator. Can we agree that the most recent history indicates that perhaps Utah is not perceived as a creme de la creme assignment? How much the Pac 10, or finding the guy to replace the guy who replaced the guy who replaced the legend, changes that is up to debate until about 4-5 years from now.

Goat, several thoughts in response.

First, I think the Utah job has always been considered a pretty good one. It has a good tradition and good facilities (the Huntsman Center will be the largest in the PAC12 - I hope there will be fannies in the seats again some day). One reason we wound up with Giacoletti is that it was hard to find someone willing to succeed Majerus. That is usually an issue after the departure of a very successful and iconic coach, and it was after Majerus. I understand Chris Hill really wanted Lon Kruger, and I also understand Kruger looked hard at the job.

Second, the college hoops world has changed a lot. I heard Hill tell a group I was in that whereas in the past, a coach working for a "low mid-major" school like Ball State needed to take WAC (now MWC) job on his way up to a top-tier job like UCLA or Indiana or [insert school]. Hill says that now, a coach can jump directly to the big time from a smaller program. That makes it much tougher to get really talented coaches for a MWC program. That is an interesting analysis and it does have the ring of truth. For example, San Diego State now has Fisher, who is doing well, but he was someone who failed in a Big 10 program. Hill has always refused to hire a coach like that who is "on the way down."

Third, after Giac ran the program down, Boylen was the best Hill could do. A commentary, I think, on the Utah program's diminished status specifically and also on the changing job market for head coaches.

So there is ground for hope that in the PAC12 Utah will be able to attract coaches who are looking more for a "destination" job. No, Utah won't ever be the top destination in the PAC12 but it won't have the dreaded mid-major label anymore.* There's reason to hope the program will resuscitate. At least that's my story - and I'm stickin' to it.

In response to Donuthole's question below about head coaching experience, I think the skills required for being a head coach are different than those that make a good assistant. Giac had HC experience but just ended up not being up to the job. (His record as a head coach wasn't all that great either. He was not Hill first choice, probably for that reason.) I think Boylen is probably a great assistant but he doesn't seem to have the extra something that a HC needs- maybe it's the ability to see the big picture and then bring it to pass. That's why I think Utah needs someone who has succeeded as a HC somewhere else.

How about success? I suspect success is a much bigger driver of exposure than conference affiliation.

Absolutely right. But that's a chicken-and-egg discussion. Conference affiliation can make success easier, I think.

*I think BYU loses the label too, by going independent.

[Hot Lunch]

How about success? I suspect success is a much bigger driver of exposure than conference affiliation.

It depends on how you measure success. Is winning a poor conference or taking second more successful than taking 4th or 5th in a really strong conference?

[MartyFunkhouser]

But if my Aunt had testicles she would be my Uncle.

You are reaching.

Utah hoops coaching job isn't a dream job, and making it to the PAC12 doesn't change that. It will still be a stepping stone job.

There is also no indication that BYU is a dream job or anything more than a stepping stone job in hoops.

[Top Ute]

That is what I call denial. Both Utah State and BYU have been able to be successful with Utah talent. The problem that Utah has right now is that the best talent in the state have stopped considering Utah. They either go to BYU or out of state like that Wilcox kid.

I think Boylen can coach X's and O's but his problem is that no one wants to play for him and doesn't have the Bobby Knight/ Rick Majerus Charisma that will send kids to the school. Not only that but I think Dr. Hill didn't do his homework and overlooked Boylen's lack of recruiting connections in the west.

Neither BYU nor Utah has truly had any great teams without star players from out-of-state. You can win with top Utah talent, but you're not going any further than what Stew has done at USU. To get into the NCAA Tournament and win consistently, you need stud players from out-of-state.

If you took the top 10 players from BYU and Utah, respectively, over the last 40 years, the vast majority are going to come from out of state.

[LA Ute]

There is also no indication that BYU is a dream job or anything more than a stepping stone job in hoops.

I disagree slightly. It seems to be the destination job for an active LDS coach. (Steve Cleveland being the exception.) That is no knock on the job at all, just reality.

[old_gregg]

BYUtv really shouldn't count in this discussion.

gonzaga has 13 guaranteed espn network (espn, espn2, espnu) games this season with a possibility of 15 from the wcc tournament. washington, undoubtedly the cream of the pac10 crop, had the potential to have five games on espn. two of those came from the maui invitational.

the wcc ain't great at a lot of things, but i think byu is certainly capable of at least sharing the spotlight that gonzaga's been under for the last few years.

[Coach McGuirk]

Eff you PAC 10. Do you see what you have done to this rivalry? Do you? Bastards.

[myboynoah]

It depends on how you measure success. Is winning a poor conference or taking second more successful than taking 4th or 5th in a really strong conference?

I would say it's a combination of things, including doing well in conference, doing well outside of the conference, overall record, RPI or some other power ranking system, national rankings, post-season success, and a winning record over multiple years. While conference affiliation can affect these at varying degrees, I don't see it being the driving force in terms of affecting exposure that TU suggests it is.

[Top Ute]

I disagree slightly. It seems to be the destination job for an active LDS coach. (Steve Cleveland being the exception.) That is no knock on the job at all, just reality.

It's ironic you mention Cleveland, or just stop with his name. He's really no different than any BYU coach that preceded him going all the way back to Glenn Potter. BYU fans like to paint any coaching job as the ultimate dream job from which there are no better places for their careers, but BYU has consistently shown it will toss you in the gutter at the smallest sign of a downturn.

[old_gregg]

BYU fans like to paint any coaching job as the ultimate dream job from which there are no better places for their careers

nobody has claimed that. it's also not like utah has been any more benevolent toward bad coaches. that argument doesn't make sense: "they fire their bad coaches! it can't be a good job!"

[myboynoah]

nobody has claimed that. it's also not like utah has been any more benevolent toward bad coaches. that argument doesn't make sense: "they fire their bad coaches! it can't be a good job!"

In fact BYU provides a landing spot for assistants with local ties that have been treated very poorly by Utah.

[The_Tick]

There is also no indication that BYU is a dream job or anything more than a stepping stone job in hoops.

I never claimed that it was.

I am just trying to point out how absurd Pat is being by continuing to demand that Utah is a top job.

It isn't and it wont be for a while.

You are one of the only people that see that from your side of the isle.

[The_Tick]

Still beating your chest over that 6-6 season, I see. Enjoy your yearly tie-in to the Kraft Fight Hunger Bowl.

No problem.

Enjoy The Veg this year, and next year too.

I am focusing on hoops now though. We have a thing called a "winning streak" going on right now.

And our team can be found in this thing called "The AP Poll" and "The ESPN Coaches Poll". It is where they put teams that are good.

Send me a PM when your team is in there again.

Rack me!

[LA Ute]

In fact BYU provides a landing spot for assistants with local ties that have been treated very poorly by Utah.

You didn't have to say that. It's Christmas time, you know.

[myboynoah]

You didn't have to say that. It's Christmas time, you know.

The old guy at the left will be good to the Judkins family again this Christmas.