What is it About Did Boylen that Ticks Off So Many Utah Fans?

[BoylenOver]

Isn't Majerus coaching somewhere now? How is that team doing?

University of St. Louis. He has the Billikens in the CBI final.

[Flattop]

You keep saying one bad season is what's soured Utah fans. Utah's had one 20-win season and no tournament wins in five years. And yes, I understand two of those were from Giacoletti.

You understand it, yet you still have to mention a five year time frame. Yes, obviously we were soured a few years ago, because we demanded a coaching change. Despite last year's conference title, we are clearly still soured -- to the point of that title being almost meaningless to us.

But the question is not why Ute fans are soured on Utan basketball, but why some of them are so mad at Boylen. Can you understand the distinction?

The 18 win season is not to be considered good by the old standard that a good season means an NCAA 2nd round appearence. But that season was a definite improvement over the 11 win season that got Boylen's predecessor fired. The 25 win conference title season qualifies as pretty good by the old standard and certainly deserving of at least a small amount of goodwill.

The Majerus comparison is hilarious. In his first full year as head coach, he won 30 games and took Utah to the Sweet 16. In his 3rd year, he won a share of the WAC title and won a first-round game.

And who recruited the majority of the players on those teams? Lynn Archibald, correct? Majerus brought in Phil Dixon and, IIRC, Byron Wilson, but the rest were essentially Archibald recruits.

Boylen won a share of the MWC title with mostly Giacoletti recruits in his 2nd season. He fell short of winning an NCAA game, however. So while Boylen does not equal what Majerus did, I don't think the comparison is wholly ridiculous.

His 4th year was the 14-14 year. Boylen has not earned the same level of confidence and "goodwill".

Despite it being Majerus's 4th full year compared to Boylen's third, there are some similarities. Majerus then, like Boylen this last season, was starting over, he had Van Horn but little else.

Boylen has not earned the same level of confidence, it is true, but some Ute fans appear to believe he has earned none at all. And that's the real point. No question Majerus had done more, and had therefore earned more goodwill. But Boylen has done more than nothing, and so has earned at least a little goodwill.

I want Coach Boylen to succeed.

Then you aren't one of the haters. I understand you being frustrated and unsatisfied with this season because I, too am not satisfied. I expected a difficult season, but this one turned out to be tougher than I thought it would be. I am not saying there are no questions or problems, or that everything is fine. Clearly there are issues, and everything is not fine. I just don't get those fans who can't wait until Boylen is gone.

I know going through a 3rd head coach in 8-9 years isn't conducive to success. But he hasn't shown enough to convince me he's a viable long-term solution.

I would have to agree, I don't know if Boylen is that long-term answer. But I think he has shown enough that giving him two more years is not unreasonable. He did a good job of evaluating the players he inherited, and he did a good enough job coaching to make those players champions, something many Ute fans didn't think was possible.

But maybe it's easier to evaluate players with two years of D1 experience compared to evaluting high school and JC players. Or maybe the players who graduated last year bought into Boylen's program and had a work ethic that this years team did not. It could also be the simple matter of Foster and Washburn not giving Utah what Neville had on the offensive end. Sometimes I would look at this team and wonder how they even won 14 games, or beat UNLV twice.

[Mr. Crimson]

You keep saying one bad season is what's soured Utah fans. Utah's had one 20-win season and no tournament wins in five years. And yes, I understand two of those were from Giacoletti.

The Majerus comparison is hilarious. In his first full year as head coach, he won 30 games and took Utah to the Sweet 16. In his 3rd year, he won a share of the WAC title and won a first-round game. His 4th year was the 14-14 year. Boylen has not earned the same level of confidence and "goodwill".

I want Coach Boylen to succeed. I know going through a 3rd head coach in 8-9 years isn't conducive to success. But he hasn't shown enough to convince me he's a viable long-term solution.

Except in Ricks 2nd year (calling 1990 year 1) he goes 9-7 in conference and finished 4th. Then in his 4th year he goes 14-14. As long as Boylen has a nice rebound year next year he's certainly within reach of Majerus' first four years. Certainly not so far apart as to call the comparison hilarious.

[BoylenOver]

Except in Ricks 2nd year (calling 1990 year 1) he goes 9-7 in conference and finished 4th. Then in his 4th year he goes 14-14. As long as Boylen has a nice rebound year next year he's certainly within reach of Majerus' first four years. Certainly not so far apart as to call the comparison hilarious.

With that caveat I agree. It would prove 2009-10 is the anomaly.

The comparison is folly because it compares a 25-win season, conference title, and NCAA appearance to a 30-win season, conference title, and Sweet 16 appearance. If Boylen wins 19+ games and gets us to at least the NIT, the comparison isn't perfect, but certainly debatable.

[Guest]

I think the premise of the question is wrong. "Haters" describes people who downgrade or cannot abide by the success of others. Boylen has been an ok coach thus far, but he doesn't have the type of success than would grant his detractors "hater" status.

I think he deserves at least another season, but if you want to ask what he's done to "tick off fans", you don't need to look much further than home losses to Idaho, Seattle U, Weber State, Illinois State and Colorado State.

[Mormon Red Death]

You are spot-on. I remember Majerus' first game as HC. The same guys who had played for Archibald and been pretty mediocre seemed transformed. People came away from that experience amazed and encouraged. It's not fair to compare Boylen to Majerus anyway, and it doesn't help at all.

I also hope Boylen succeeds. At this point we are reduced to hope. It would not surprise me if he does succeed. But we have no choice now.

The first game I saw that boylen coach was a close loss at washington. You could see Giac's players were transformed. I went away excited and encouraged.

[LA Ute]

The first game I saw that boylen coach was a close loss at washington. You could see Giac's players were transformed. I went away excited and encouraged.

Well, thanks. I have a little more hope. I really do think he may yet work out.

[Flattop]

I think he deserves at least another season, but if you want to ask what he's done to "tick off fans", you don't need to look much further than home losses to Idaho, Seattle U, Weber State, Illinois State and Colorado State.

Minor point but Utah lost to Weber St. in Ogden, and Illinois St. won 22 games this year. Oklahoma, OTOH, won only 13, so that was probably the worst home loss of the two.

[SeattleUte]

Not at all. He was worn out and had stopped recruiting the way he was capable of. After 1998-99 he was never the same again, both personally and as a coach. His heart wasn't in it any more. I did get to a point when I said it was time to recognize that the emporer had no clothes.



I don't think I ever used that myself. (Correct me if I am wrong.) I did once agree with a post that said Majerus had stayed past his expiration date or something like that. It was an apt description.

I've always said I'll be forever grateful to the guy for what he did for Utah hoops. I wish the U. would honor him in some way.

Coaches of Majerus' brilliance and dedication to excellence are extremely rare. You just don't replace them. Utah isn't unique. Other examples abound; UCLA, Lousiville, DePaul, St. Johns, Oklahhoma State, North Carolina State, the list of fallen programs following the departure of a great coach goes on and on. Most programs are not North Carolina or Kansas. Majerus was always erratic, and perhaps never as much as just before he left. It's unfortunate that Marc Jackson left the team. But it just isn't true that he was burned out, had stopped recruiting, etc. He had Bogut and a bunch of other quality kids who would lead the Utes to a conference tournament and regular season titles and a Sweet 16 under coaches as unremarkable as Kerry Rupp and Ray Giacoletti. It's disappointing that you and Chris Hill did not appreciate him and failed to defend hiim against an opportunist like Monson. (Unlike mpfunk and others I have been consistent in saying these things.)

[Mr. Crimson]

Coaches of Majerus' brilliance and dedication to excellence are extremely rare. You just don't replace them. Utah isn't unique. Other examples abound; UCLA, Lousiville, DePaul, St. Johns, Oklahhoma State, North Carolina State, the list of fallen programs following the departure of a great coach goes on and on. Most programs are not North Carolina or Kansas. Majerus was always erratic, and perhaps never as much as just before he left. It's unfortunate that Marc Jackson left the team. But it just isn't true that he was burned out, had stopped recruiting, etc. He had Bogut and a bunch of other quality kids who would lead the Utes to a conference tournament and regular season titles and a Sweet 16 under coaches as unremarkable as Kerry Rupp and Ray Giacoletti. It's disappointing that you and Chris Hill did not appreciate him and failed to defend hiim against an opportunist like Monson. (Unlike mpfunk and others I have been consistent in saying these things.)

Chris Hill did defend him, for well over a decade. He covered for him, for all the angry strange insufferable behavior. I got to be very close with the professor who was faculty rep to the athletic department, and the stuff Chris Hill covered is quite amazing and would have gotten other coaches fired 3 or 4 times over.

Plus the problem wasn't his highs it was his lows in recruiting. Marc Jackson quitting and Andrew Bogut nearly quitting both because of Majerus aside, his multiple misses are what started this mess. One superstar is nice but to build a team for season after season of winning you need consistency and that disappeared after the final four year.

In fact you can break Rick's time at Utah down to three periods. The first was nice but the multiple misses on Prop 48 kids caused the 14-14 year. Then we had some real consistency and a HUGE win with a Prop 48 named Andre Miller. And then it was all over the place, I mean who can forget Jake Schmidt from Thermopolis, WY, who Rat McClain didn't even see fit to recruit. AND THE RAT WAS RIGHT.

In the end, Chris Hill simply couldn't protect Majerus anymore. And if was because Majerus kept throwing gas on his own fire not anything Chris Hill did.

[LA Ute]

Coaches of Majerus' brilliance and dedication to excellence are extremely rare. You just don't replace them. Utah isn't unique. Other examples abound; UCLA, Lousiville, DePaul, St. Johns, Oklahhoma State, North Carolina State, the list of fallen programs following the departure of a great coach goes on and on. Most programs are not North Carolina or Kansas. Majerus was always erratic, and perhaps never as much as just before he left. It's unfortunate that Marc Jackson left the team. But it just isn't true that he was burned out, had stopped recruiting, etc. He had Bogut and a bunch of other quality kids who would lead the Utes to a conference tournament and regular season titles and a Sweet 16 under coaches as unremarkable as Kerry Rupp and Ray Giacoletti. It's disappointing that you and Chris Hill did not appreciate him and failed to defend hiim against an opportunist like Monson. (Unlike mpfunk and others I have been consistent in saying these things.)

I agree that coaches like Majerus are difficult to replace and that the first successor or two have a hard time. I can tell you with great confidence that Gordon Monson has nothing to do with any decision by Chris Hill. Never has, never will. Gordo is not even on Hill's radar screen, unless he decides to show up at a press conference once every 5 years or so and cause a disruption. And if you think the post-1998 Majerus approached the program with the same energy and ingenuity that the pre-1998 Majerus did, you have a severe knowledge deficit.

[frank ryan]

Isn't Majerus coaching somewhere now? How is that team doing?

at St Louis, more surprising to me he has an ex-player, Alex Jensen as an assistant.

[SeattleUte]

at St Louis, more surprising to me he has an ex-player, Alex Jensen as an assistant.

I'm impressed by your reasoning here. I'm sure every one of Majerus' players at Utah did absolutely hate his guts, which is precisely why they gave all they had to the team and took the Utes to places you can only dream about for BYU.

[U-Ute]

I'm impressed by your reasoning here. I'm sure every one of Majerus' players at Utah did absolutely hate his guts, which is precisely why they gave all they had to the team and took the Utes to places you can only dream about for BYU.

Rick was one of the, if not the ultimate, tough love coaches. If you are the kind of player that can thrive in that environment, you will succeed. Van Horn, Alex Jensen, and Nick Jacobson survived the fire. Britton Johnson, Marc Jackson, and Cameron Goettsche did not.

I'm not saying it is right or wrong. Some coaches (and parents) live on that edge, some stay away from it (Wooden being a prime example). I put a little bit of the onus on the players, and the parents of the players for understanding what they are getting into. The players may have been too young to understand, but the parents most certainly should have. Either way, there is a certain effectiveness to it. That being said, I'm with LA Ute on this: Rick was not the same after the Final Four run of '98. I think that game pushed him over the edge where there was a lot more of the "tough" and not enough of the "love".

U-Ute

[mUUser]

I wouldn't say Boylen ticks me off. The next two years will tell the story.

However, I find him to be an unremarkable coach -- which is exactly what we were likely to find for $650K year. At that rate, you're gonna take a flyer on someone short on accomplishments, whether its Boylen, Connors, Christian, Dunlap or any other available coach in that price range.

Personally, I liked Dunlap, but he's just a flyer of a different stripe.

I will note, however, that his antic during the SDSU game was a real head scratcher and one of the more embarrasing moments in Utah basketball.