At what point did you / will you take the coronavirus epidemic seriously?

[old_gregg]

Hey, this happens to be kind of my field! OSHA was created by an act of Congress and tasked in the legislation with creating and enforcing (through fines mostly) the workplace safety regulations you note above. Presumably if OSHA ever overstepped their congressional mandate, either Congress or citizens/companies through the courts could reign them in. In practice that never really happens, but at least the regulations are created under authority delegated them by an act of Congress. (now wandering back out of my field into yours) What law gives the federal executive branch the authority to do this, even worse in my mind mandate companies do it for them? I believe emergency powers are necessary sometime but like I said before I no longer view COVID as an emergency. People are dying but they are dying overwhelmingly by choice. It's sad, yes but those of us who made rational risk assessments and got vaccinated are safe.

you answered your own question. osha and the administrative rule making authority of the executive branch are the sources of authority.

[SeattleUte]

Hey, this happens to be kind of my field! OSHA was created by an act of Congress and tasked in the legislation with creating and enforcing (through fines mostly) the workplace safety regulations you note above. Presumably if OSHA ever overstepped their congressional mandate, either Congress or citizens/companies through the courts could reign them in. In practice that never really happens, but at least the regulations are created under authority delegated them by an act of Congress. (now wandering back out of my field into yours) What law gives the federal executive branch the authority to do this, even worse in my mind mandate companies do it for them? I believe emergency powers are necessary sometime but like I said before I no longer view COVID as an emergency. People are dying but they are dying overwhelmingly by choice. It's sad, yes but those of us who made rational risk assessments and got vaccinated are safe.

Factually, it's not true that it's just Americans dying by choice. They are causing vast disruptions to the economy and also putting vulnerable Americans at risk.

[Omaha 680]

you answered your own question. osha and the administrative rule making authority of the executive branch are the sources of authority.

They are executing the mandate through OSHA? That makes sense kind of and I guess I should have intuitively understood that. Is there another case of OSHA mandating a vaccine or something similar health-related in order to simply be employed in any capacity? (outside of the postal service!).

To AJ's point there are vaccine mandates in many public schools that I don't take issue with. I'm just reasoning this out for myself in public I guess. I hope we are still allowed to do that!

[Omaha 680]

Factually, it's not true that it's just Americans dying by choice. They are causing vast disruptions to the economy and also putting vulnerable Americans at risk.

Well they are choosing to engage in very risky behavior after being warned they should not so it is their choice. I would argue the economic disruptions come from government intervention well past the point of necessity more than COVID itself at this point. Your last point about vulnerable Americans may be the one that persuades me.

[old_gregg]

They are executing the mandate through OSHA? That makes sense kind of and I guess I should have intuitively understood that. Is there another case of OSHA mandating a vaccine or something similar health-related in order to simply be employed in any capacity? (outside of the postal service!).

To AJ's point there are vaccine mandates in many public schools that I don't take issue with. I'm just reasoning this out for myself in public I guess. I hope we are still allowed to do that!

yes. osha regulates all kinds of workplace health-related activity.

[SeattleUte]

Well they are choosing to engage in very risky behavior after being warned they should not so it is their choice. I would argue the economic disruptions come from government intervention well past the point of necessity more than COVID itself at this point. Your last point about vulnerable Americans may be the one that persuades me.

If you disagree with the factual predicate, you have to show that the regulation is arbitrary and capricious. Almost impossible.

[SeattleUte]

It's also been long ago settled that the Interstate Commerce Clause supports OSHA.

What part of the Constitution would a challenger rely on? The Right to Privacy? Ha. This is not a Civil Rights issue.

[Northwestcoug]

I think this was more of a political move rather than a public health move. The mandate will help around the edges, mainly by finding incidental positive unvaccinated people during routine testing, so they can be isolated. I really think most vaccine holdouts are fanatical believers, and a weekly test is a small price to pay for orthodoxy. And with the glaring loopholes like USPS and police unions like Portland's, it's not going to be as effective as most want it to be. But if you look at the numbers, solid majorities support school/workplace mandates, however you want to word it. It will play well with democrats and independents.

I understand there are some legit legal concerns re OSHA and congressional approval. But the righteous indignation just seems way over the top. Public health and personal freedom are kind of mutually exclusive, and for good reason. We've ceded most of those fights for the good of society. These people would self-immolate seeing how China and other dictatorial regimes have vaccinated their populations throughout history.

[SeattleUte]

I think this was more of a political move rather than a public health move. The mandate will help around the edges, mainly by finding incidental positive unvaccinated people during routine testing, so they can be isolated. I really think most vaccine holdouts are fanatical believers, and a weekly test is a small price to pay for orthodoxy. And with the glaring loopholes like USPS and police unions like Portland's, it's not going to be as effective as most want it to be. But if you look at the numbers, solid majorities support school/workplace mandates, however you want to word it. It will play well with democrats and independents.

I understand there are some legit legal concerns re OSHA and congressional approval. But the righteous indignation just seems way over the top. Public health and personal freedom are kind of mutually exclusive, and for good reason. We've ceded most of those fights for the good of society. These people would self-immolate seeing how China and other dictatorial regimes have vaccinated their populations throughout history.

Anyone making a civil liberties argument about this is just unschooled.

[Katy Lied]

if the usfg can compel companies to force people to wear steel toes and safety harnesses and attend regular training, why would they not be able to do this?

Because the steel toes and safety harnesses are directly related to the work that employees do. If you're a secretary for a mining company, you would not have to gear up.

But Covid is a public danger for all of the country. Yet running the remedy through OSHA means that vaxes will be mandated for a small subset of people who happen to work for a company with over 100 employees, unless they have a union that is against it. It is much more efficient to regulate the population directly and mandate a vaccination for all, including non-employees, small business employees, seasonal labor, children, retirees, etc. This will produce a very inefficient result to the intent that all be vaccinated. So why embrace this solution?

1. By using employers, the government is raising the stakes for people to get vaxed. If they restrict voting priveledges to only those vaxed, lots of people won't care. Pay people $200 to get innoculated, and even that fails. But hold peoples' jobs for ransom, and now we are talking a serious stake in the outcome.

2. By using employers, the government is offsetting the costs of administering monitoring and compliance to the private sector. This will become serious business shortly-- if you dont believe it look at the health insurance industry, even before Obamacare.

3. By using employers, the govt is ducking a lot of the political fallout. "If you dont want to vaccinate, then just dont have a job. Or get a job at a small company."

4.Nationwide monitoring and compliance wont work without a national ID, and that goes against a lot of US cultural history.

I'm all for mandating vaccinations with penalties. Dont want to be vaccinated? Go to the non-vax supermarket to shop. Or dont fly to Hawaii. Or order all of your neccessities from a home delivery grocer and Amazon. Or go to court virtually. I just think forcing employers to be the monitoring and compliance police is wrong.

[old_gregg]

Because the steel toes and safety harnesses are directly related to the work that employees do. If you're a secretary for a mining company, you would not have to gear up.

But Covid is a public danger for all of the country. Yet running the remedy through OSHA means that vaxes will be mandated for a small subset of people who happen to work for a company with over 100 employees, unless they have a union that is against it. It is much more efficient to regulate the population directly and mandate a vaccination for all, including non-employees, small business employees, seasonal labor, children, retirees, etc. This will produce a very inefficient result to the intent that all be vaccinated. So why embrace this solution?

1. By using employers, the government is raising the stakes for people to get vaxed. If they restrict voting priveledges to only those vaxed, lots of people won't care. Pay people $200 to get innoculated, and even that fails. But hold peoples' jobs for ransom, and now we are talking a serious stake in the outcome.

2. By using employers, the government is offsetting the costs of administering monitoring and compliance to the private sector. This will become serious business shortly-- if you dont believe it look at the health insurance industry, even before Obamacare.

3. By using employers, the govt is ducking a lot of the political fallout. "If you dont want to vaccinate, then just dont have a job. Or get a job at a small company."

4.Nationwide monitoring and compliance wont work without a national ID, and that goes against a lot of US cultural history.

I'm all for mandating vaccinations with penalties. Dont want to be vaccinated? Go to the non-vax supermarket to shop. Or dont fly to Hawaii. Or order all of your neccessities from a home delivery grocer and Amazon. Or go to court virtually. I just think forcing employers to be the monitoring and compliance police is wrong.

not getting coronavirus is directly related to the work that all employed people do. nobody is making a moral argument here about right or wrong (or at least i’m not), but there’s clearly admin law authority to do this.

[SeattleUte]

https://twitter.com/sailorrooscout/status/1436325238111879173?s=21

Some like Ben Shapiro and Omaha oppose the mandate because the vaccines are so effective. Here’s the analogy. If 1,500 members a day of a religious cult were jumping of the Golden Gate Bridge because the Prophet told them to, would it be right or legal to stop them?

[Pelado]

It's sad, yes but those of us who made rational risk assessments and got vaccinated are mostly safe.

fify

[SeattleUte]

fify

The death rate is less than 1%, and those are with co-morbidities.

[Jeff Lebowski]

The death rate is less than 1%, and those are with co-morbidities.

Some interesting data from the state of Utah last week. 88% of hospitalizations are unvaccinated. Of the 12% vaccinated, average age was something like 70 and they averaged about 6-7 co-morbidities. For the 88% unvaxxed, the average age was 15-20 years younger and they averaged 1-2 co-morbidities.