Las Vegas Strip - Deadliest Mass Shooting in US

[Topper]

Are there any reliable statistics on how often a private citizen's firearm PREVENTS a crime (robbery, home invasion, etc)? Taking mass shootings, armed robberies, living in SE Chigaco, etc out of the equation. I would be curious for a comparison of how many accidental shootings and suicides are caused from easy access to guns, versus how much crime they actually prevent?

I grew up hunting. When I was 7 I was paid a quarter for every ground squirrel i killed with my .22 I've done tons of pheasant, chukar and quail hunting, and have gone out for deer and elk a couple times (never shot one). I have nothing against hunting; I just don't like cleaning the animals or eating what I shoot. So i given it up completely. I would say 95% of my real world friends are very pro guns. I know the EQ in my ward frequently has "shooting nights" - I don't attend once I found out it doesn't involve salt pellets and teenagers

I personally am unaware of anyone who has ever had to protect their home, or otherwise used a gun to prevent a crime. I do however know a kind from HS who is missing a toe, another one who put a hole through the side of his dad's Bronco II, and 4 different individuals who used a gun to end their life. My feelings on gun control fluctuate. I wish there were some reliable numbers, that I knew weren't adjusted because of the source's political leanings.

You can probably speculate but there are no reliable stats on how many people have defended themselves with firearms, but there is anecdotal evidence it occurs. How would this be collected? We have gun death stats because the FBI collects this data.

The Second Amendment, at its core, is a right to defend oneself with reasonable means. An individual has a right to live and to stop somebody else from taking that life. A firearm is a means of doing that. Historically, people needed weapons to ensure a militia could be mustered and for personal welfare, such as providing food and personal protection out on the frontier. Do you believe the Framers wanted people living on the frontier not to be able to defend themselves from attacks from Native Americans? (I'm not commenting upon whether those attacks may have been otherwise justified). Now, firearm ownership has morphed into a huge hobby for sportlers and aficionados. It is sorta a pnumbra affect. Firearm advocates want to protect the pnumbra in order to return to the pre-1986 world where everything and anything made it difficult to enjoy their passion and pastime.

Now the debate rages as to what is reasonable and who is to decide. Do we have somebody who abhors firearms decide what is reasonable out of fear?

[Green Monstah]

cue cowboy pastoral aw shucks post patronizing us city folk because we could never understand the issues real murica faces, following which he will be treated with kid gloves rather than someone making the point that he lives with white people in the middle o nowhere and deals with people of diverse perspectives only to the extent they work for him.

Savage.

[Topper]

You are smarter than this. You know that's not what I was saying so obviously I wounded you to make you lash out with a ridiculous argument like that. I'm sorry that I triggered you by pointing out that none of your proposed solutions are realistic or effective and that the probability of dying in a mass murder is so small that spending the political time and capital to enforce your proposals is unwise.

Sent from my E6810 using Tapatalk

He is very smart, just ask him.

In order to win a debate on public policy, his side will employ all emotional arguments necessary to win. It is about winning, because they do not like firearms or what they represent, i.e., the potential for harm or liberty for personal action. BM is an authoritarian at heart.

[swampfrog]

There's also this:

When Ida B. Wells noted that “a Winchester rifle should have a place of honor in every black home, and it should be used for that protection which the law refuses to give,” she was confirming an age-old truth: The gun is a great equalizer, and the state a capricious beast.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.58d93fe71b85

Discussion without at least acknowledging that disarmament puts the population at greater risk of abuse by local, state, and national governments. Is the risk real? How much more is it? All pertinent questions. Can it happen here? Hopefully not at the national level--as at that level small arms might be insignificant, but what about smaller jurisdictions?. Are personal arms sufficient to make a difference anyway?

As in the video I linked before, it is very difficult to measure lives not lost in great wars that did not happen, the same can be said for the result of preventative treaties, laws, and regulations. How many crimes have been prevented, how many local authorities have not committed atrocities because of fear of an armed citizen uprising? From cops leaning on business owners for "protection fees" to more directly violent acts. How much does the fear of effective resistance deter those who might otherwise be inclined? We have to remember the past abuses in framing any current argument.

Has society in the US evolved to where such fear of government overstepping it's legally described boundaries can be abandoned? The framers of the constitution obviously feared the power of a strong authoritative centralized government, are we willing to put our trust in those elected and relinquish our right to personally defend ourselves?

[creekster]

cue cowboy pastoral aw shucks post patronizing us city folk because we could never understand the issues real murica faces, following which he will be treated with kid gloves rather than someone making the point that he lives with white people in the middle o nowhere and deals with people of diverse perspectives only to the extent they work for him.

You are so annoyingly patronizing and so smug and self-satisfied that you are almost singlehandedly making this board not worth it for me. You and your ilk are exactly why Trump won. Do you have anything worthwhile to say here? Or do you just prefer to parade your self-assessed vastly superior morality and intelligence while leaving nothing of substance or worth on the table?

[old_gregg]

You are so annoyingly patronizing and so smug and self-satisfied that you are almost singlehandedly making this board not worth it for me. You and your ilk are exactly why Trump won. Do you have anything worthwhile to say here? Or do you just prefer to parade your self-assessed vastly superior morality and intelligence while leaving nothing of substance or worth on the table?

whoa you take that back right now

[Katy Lied]

cue cowboy pastoral aw shucks post patronizing us city folk because we could never understand the issues real murica faces, following which he will be treated with kid gloves rather than someone making the point that he lives with white people in the middle o nowhere and deals with people of diverse perspectives only to the extent they work for him.

what about the hospital patients?

[Crockett]

Has society in the US evolved to where such fear of government overstepping it's legally described boundaries can be abandoned? The framers of the constitution obviously feared the power of a strong authoritative centralized government, are we willing to put our trust in those elected and relinquish our right to personally defend ourselves?

It's funny that all of these liberals / progressives that screech Trump is the next Hitler are now so willing to give up their 2d amendment rights. If Trump were truly a budding tyrant, then they should be more supportive than ever of the 2d amendment. And don't forget, the Nazis came to power, reviewed the gun registration logs and began confiscating firearms, particularly from the Jews and political enemies / enemies of the state. Authoritarian governments prefer defenseless, pacified populaces. So much easier to control.

[Topper]

It's funny that all of these liberals / progressives that screech Trump is the next Hitler are now so willing to give up their 2d amendment rights. If Trump were truly a budding tyrant, then they should be more supportive than ever of the 2d amendment. And don't forget, the Nazis came to power, reviewed the gun registration logs and began confiscating firearms, particularly from the Jews and political enemies / enemies of the state. Authoritarian governments prefer defenseless, pacified populaces. So much easier to control.

The truth is either side of a debate will countenance the use of tactics and power, even if it conceptually contrary to declared ideology, so long as the results turn out right. Very few actually respect process. Thus, liberals want authority to take away guns. Social conservatives want authority to ban abortion or gay marriages. Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.

[Crockett]

The truth is either side of a debate will countenance the use of tactics and power, even if it conceptually contrary to declared ideology, so long as the results turn out right. Very few actually respect process. Thus, liberals want authority to take away guns. Social conservatives want authority to ban abortion or gay marriages. Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.

Oh, that reminds me. I do not want to hear any moral preening, lecturing, or shaming about gun rights (a real right) from anyone who supports abortion (a fake right).

[Crockett]

What other first-world countries have mass shootings like this? Serious question.

Why do some of you people act like taking guns away won't help? Take them the hell away for 25 years and see what happens. Everything will be OK. No one is going to break into your house or mug you.

IMG_9509.jpg

[Sleeping in EQ]

This board needs a hug.

[beefytee]

Are there any reliable statistics on how often a private citizen's firearm PREVENTS a crime (robbery, home invasion, etc)? Taking mass shootings, armed robberies, living in SE Chigaco, etc out of the equation. I would be curious for a comparison of how many accidental shootings and suicides are caused from easy access to guns, versus how much crime they actually prevent?

Is this the kind of statistic you are looking for?

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/05/o...ion-columnists

The F.B.I. counted a total of 268 “justifiable homicides” by private citizens involving firearms in 2015; that is, felons killed in the course of committing a felony. Yet that same year, there were 489 “unintentional firearms deaths” in the United States, according to the Centers for Disease Control. Between 77 and 141 of those killed were children.

[Topper]

Oh, that reminds me. I do not want to hear any moral preening, lecturing, or shaming about gun rights (a real right) from anyone who supports abortion (a fake right).

Did you learn to frame debates from BM?

[Shaka]

whoa you take that back right now

Maybe we can get CBS to fire you.