Social Media Outrage/Cancel Culture

[Commando]

So - what do you think of "that guy" saying that he saw fear in their eyes and he learned as a marine that people kill what they fear? You laugh at anyone saying they felt threatened by that guy - do you also laugh at that guy for saying he felt threatened by the kids jumping up and down, laughing, etc?

You've reached a point that you're able to say you can't fault them as much as you have been - while doing your darnedest to make sure it's clear that they still are to blame for something. That whatever happened was caused by them. Maybe the Black Hebrews bear some blame, as they were openly trying to incite people - but you still seem to be giving "that guy" a free pass for walking into the middle of this group of kids and getting in their faces. He might not have been trying to start something. But walking right into the group of kids and banging a drum in their faces is about as dumb a thing as you can do if you aren't trying to start something.

All three of these groups were there as part of protests. There are bound to be things said back and forth. Whatever. I'm glad you're able to now say that maybe one of the adult groups that was actually shouting horrible things is more to blame than the kids who didn't. I guess we'll see if you ever reach the point of saying that some guy walking into their space and banging a drum in their faces probably isn't the best way to deescalate the situation.

I get the impression that these kids could've been at a soup kitchen feeding the homeless, but because they were wearing MAGA hats you'd find a way to describe them as attacking homeless vets somehow.

lol. Feel free to sport your maga hat. Just don't get mad when nobody wants to be your friend.

[Commando]

“Suppose one reads a story of filthy atrocities in the paper. Then suppose that something turns up suggesting that the story might not be quite true, or not quite so bad as it was made out. Is one's first feeling, 'Thank God, even they aren't quite so bad as that,' or is it a feeling of disappointment, and even a determination to cling to the first story for the sheer pleasure of thinking your enemies are as bad as possible? If it is the second then it is, I am afraid, the first step in a process which, if followed to the end, will make us into devils. You see, one is beginning to wish that black was a little blacker. If we give that wish its head, later on we shall wish to see grey as black, and then to see white itself as black. Finally we shall insist on seeing everything -- God and our friends and ourselves included -- as bad, and not be able to stop doing it: we shall be fixed for ever in a universe of pure hatred.”

― C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

NOOOOOO HELP ME BREAK THE CYCLE, MAGA AVENGER!

[Eddie]

lol. Feel free to sport your maga hat. Just don't get mad when nobody wants to be your friend.

I think this is the problem, quite honestly.

I've made it clear many times that I don't like Trump and didn't vote for him. I don't see myself voting for him in the future.

But I also try to look at things from multiple perspectives and think things through reasonably and logically. I'll admit that I'm not always successful. I'm sure anyone looking can find my episodes of failing to see my biases.

But this whole thing isn't about Trump. That is my whole point. Regardless of how you feel about what each of these groups of protestors were there to protest, try looking at their actions in a vacuum. I don't like Trump. I don't like the extreme pro-life Christians' approach either. But when comparing the actions of these kids to the groups of adults they interacted with - the kids look like the reasonable ones.

[Jeff Lebowski]

lol. Feel free to sport your maga hat. Just don't get mad when nobody wants to be your friend.

Yeah, this is just what we need Commando. More simplistic tribal thinking!

[swampfrog]

NOOOOOO HELP ME BREAK THE CYCLE, MAGA AVENGER!

Meh. Star Wars Episodes 1 through 3 were the great opportunity missed. It set out to tell the great archetypal story of the innocent becoming the monster and failed miserably. Which is too bad, because innocents do become monsters, and knowing that the path exists and recognizing it are really useful. It had many of the pieces, pain, love, revenge, jealousy, etc. but ended up a mess.

Peterson touches on most of this is Chapter 6 of "12 Rules for Life", though many have commented on it throughout history.

Are you insinuating that such cycles or paths don't exist? I'm not sure exactly what the takeaway is. Was there something in the quote that is untrue? I think it's pretty accurate in describing the thought process that has occasionally led to atrocity.

[BigPiney]

lol. Feel free to sport your maga hat. Just don't get mad when nobody wants to be your friend.

I sometimes wear my Putin riding a bear shirt that I got in St Petersburg. Got to give a shout out to the guy really running Washington.

[swampfrog]

I've been struggling with the hat. Symbology is a complex topic. You can take any symbol that is culturally significant and find numerous interpretations. The interpretations only exist within the ideology of the observer. There is nothing inherently "wrong" about the phrase "Make America Great Again" unless it is first passed through an ideological landscape. It does assume the existence of a time in which America was great so it does have an inherent restriction. But to what period of time it refers, depends solely on greater context. For a Native American, that could mean, before the colonization by Europeans. For the extreme environmentalist, it could mean before any humans arrived. Both of those groups could have used the same words as their slogan. The context matters, and the context is so complicated that it cannot be distilled down to a simple comprehensible ideology. Misunderstanding is a given and can only be mitigated by dialog.

Even for people of highly religious background with a history of symbol misrepresentation, it can be difficult to grapple with symbols from other groups or cultures. This was discussed a little between Bari Weiss and Joe Rogan. Bari (a Jew) taking the side of "people wearing the hat have to know...", and Joe pushing back a bit. I wish they had dealt with the bigger question they were dancing around--that of responsibility. As in when displaying a symbol, where does the responsibility lie?

When Jewish people were forced to wear the star of David, what did the symbol represent? The differences in attitude toward that star differed significantly. To the Jews, the yellow star was a symbol of heroism and martyrdom. Some Nazis viewed it as representative of disgusting, less than human vermin justifying extermination. Obviously it's not quite the same, as the Jewish people were coerced. What about the cross then? Christian people throughout the world wear it proudly as a symbol of their faith. The symbology is deep and complex. To even simplify as just a representation of the crucifixion is ignorance (of which Mormons are particularly guilty). Entire books have been written on the topic. Do other groups react to that symbol with hatred and contempt? Yes of course they do. To them it's also a symbol of repression, witch hunts, the inquisition, the crusades, etc. Do some cultures wish to eradicate Christians, yes they do.

The similarity in all of these cases is that symbols can be used to make a group more cohesive internally as a focus for sacred beliefs and rites. This has great evolutionary fitness value--so great that it has emerged in every known human culture. At the same time it can serve as a focus for contempt, disgust, and hatred for the out groups. So where does the responsibility for understanding the full meaning of symbols lie? Within the group displaying the symbol to understand how every other possible out group may interpret the symbol? Or is it the responsibility for every out group to try to understand the larger interpretation that is found by studying the in group culture in depth? Or is it both?

Is the hat a symbol of Donald Trump? Sure. Is it a symbol of Racism? For some. Is it way more complex than the average out group member understands? Of course it is. It means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. Like with all things that involve humans interacting, it's complicated. So it requires dialog--complex, nuanced, difficult dialog.

[Bo Diddley]

Is the hat a symbol of Donald Trump? Sure. Is it a symbol of Racism? For some. Is it way more complex than the average out group member understands? Of course it is. It means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. Like with all things that involve humans interacting, it's complicated. So it requires dialog--complex, nuanced, difficult dialog.

Do you think it's much different than the Hope and Change symbol people used and wore during Obama's time?

[swampfrog]

Do you think it's much different than the Hope and Change symbol people used and wore during Obama's time?

Of course they are different. One seemingly points to the future looking to create that which has not been, one looks to the past, looking to restore some of what has been. I'm not commenting at how effective a symbol it is, only that it's complicated. All symbols are complicated. Though for many "Change" also is not a symbol of unmitigated good. Were there things from America's past (however you define that) that were indeed good that we seem to have lost? If there are, than some change has been for the worse. There are things from our past that may be worth recovering, and there may be new ideas worth discovering. Conserve that which is good, fix that which is bad. And when good and bad are difficult to distinguish, use civil dialog and step out of the ideological box that we are all inevitably constrained by.

[Bo Diddley]

Of course they are different. One seemingly points to the future looking to create that which has not been, one looks to the past, looking to restore some of what has been. I'm not commenting at how effective a symbol it is, only that it's complicated. All symbols are complicated. Though for many "Change" also is not a symbol of unmitigated good. Were there things from America's past (however you define that) that were indeed good that we seem to have lost? If there are, than some change has been for the worse. There are things from our past that may be worth recovering, and there may be new ideas worth discovering. Conserve that which is good, fix that which is bad. And when good and bad are difficult to distinguish, use civil dialog and step out of the ideological box that we are all inevitably constrained by.

Maybe I should have asked that another way. How similar do you find them? And if Commando thinks wearing a MAGA hat equates to an eff you, perhaps the Hope and Change t-shirt was similar back in its time.

[swampfrog]

Maybe I should have asked that another way. How similar do you find them? And if Commando thinks wearing a MAGA hat equates to an eff you, perhaps the Hope and Change t-shirt was similar back in its time.

I don't have the context or data to answer that. I can only make assumptions. I would guess that to some people it would have to have that response. The slogan or symbol of any tribe is going to be construed negatively by some out tribe members. You can make a point that Trump's symbol is more disruptive, but part of that has to be attributed to the general increasing polarization and divisiveness being spun up in both political parties. Hard to make a comparison because the context has changed so much.

[Bo Diddley]

I don't have the context or data to answer that. I can only make assumptions. I would guess that to some people it would have to have that response. The slogan or symbol of any tribe is going to be construed negatively by some out tribe members. You can make a point that Trump's symbol is more disruptive, but part of that has to be attributed to the general increasing polarization and divisiveness being spun up in both political parties. Hard to make a comparison because the context has changed so much.

In many ways it has changed, but in many significant ways it hasn't.

[Commando]

Maybe I should have asked that another way. How similar do you find them? And if Commando thinks wearing a MAGA hat equates to an eff you, perhaps the Hope and Change t-shirt was similar back in its time.

I never voted for Obama and never was cheering him on while he was in office, so I feel qualified to answer this: I thought the Hope and Change T-shirts were a bit of pomposity and but I did like the design and the artist, Shepard Fairey. I thought it was great marketing, the same way the hat was during the 2016 campaign. I don't think they made the same kind of statement the hats do now two years later, in the midst of all the things Trump has done that have drawn a line in the sand on a variety of issues. I would observe that both are provocative in their own way. But who knows? The people that wear the hat are the same people who still blame everything going wrong in the world today on Obama, including racism in America.

[Bo Diddley]

I never voted for Obama and never was cheering him on while he was in office, so I feel qualified to answer this: I thought the Hope and Change T-shirts were a bit of pomposity and but I did like the design and the artist, Shepard Fairey. I thought it was great marketing, the same way the hat was during the 2016 campaign. I don't think they made the same kind of statement the hats do now two years later, in the midst of all the things Trump has done that have drawn a line in the sand on a variety of issues. I would observe that both are provocative in their own way.

I never voted for Obama or Trump!

[swampfrog]

I never voted for Obama and never was cheering him on while he was in office, so I feel qualified to answer this: I thought the Hope and Change T-shirts were a bit of pomposity and but I did like the design and the artist, Shepard Fairey. I thought it was great marketing, the same way the hat was during the 2016 campaign. I don't think they made the same kind of statement the hats do now two years later, in the midst of all the things Trump has done that have drawn a line in the sand on a variety of issues. I would observe that both are provocative in their own way. But who knows? The people that wear the hat are the same people who still blame everything going wrong in the world today on Obama, including racism in America.

Besides one single word, we're in agreement on that. Some The people that wear the hat are the same people... It's also a valid point that I should have made that the interpretation of symbols changes over time.