Comrade Trump

[Northwestcoug]

You know, with all respect, the more i thought about this post, the more it angered me. It is so obnoxiously elitist (not to mention erroneous) to say that "populists" are life's losers. Especially when you selectively define populist to mean just those who disagree with you. You almost always sound the right note, but this one was way off base. And if you can't at the very least see why I would think so, even if you disagree, then you need to recalibrate your thinking, which I mean non-pejoratively and non-condescendingly.

I didn't realize you were a Trump voter. The guilty taketh the truth to be hard, amirite?

[tooblue]

You know, with all respect, the more i thought about this post, the more it angered me. It is so obnoxiously elitist (not to mention erroneous) to say that "populists" are life's losers. Especially when you selectively define populist to mean just those who disagree with you. You almost always sound the right note, but this one was way off base. And if you can't at the very least see why I would think so, even if you disagree, then you need to recalibrate your thinking, which I mean non-pejoratively and non-condescendingly.

In my personal experience with a great many family and friends who voted for Trump, they fall in to three categories:

1. Highly intelligent, well educated, fiscally conservative upper middle class (the silent majority independent voter in the US), affable and not prone to extreme views, who conscientiously voted for Trump because they are so sick and tired of the politics as usual dynamic of Washington. Their vote was a metaphorical if not a literal FU. They are pleased that they will reap the economic benefits of their choice, at least for now.

2. The devout/evangelical individual who is so insecure in their faith they truly believe voting for a morally reprehensible individual such as Trump is acceptable, only and exclusively because in occupying the moral high ground (in their minds), the ends they care most deeply about, always justify the means. This group sees nothing but validation in their choice—primarily because Trump will appoint, at a minimum, at least two Supreme Court justices during his presidency.

3. The populists PAC is referring to: Plain and simply, they are ignorant and angry. Heaven help the US if Trump is impeached.

[creekster]

I didn't realize you were a Trump voter. The guilty taketh the truth to be hard, amirite?

I wouldn't care if he had said I am a loser. But the labelling of the phenomenon that way is exactly the problem I was talking about above.

And, to be clear, as I have reluctantly said here several times before, I did not vote for Trump. I wanted to vote for him, or anyone, over Clinton, but I could not do it. It helped, tbh, that I knew California was so far gone for Clinton that it wouldn't matter, but my own conscience is clear on the issue.

[PaloAltoCougar]

You know, with all respect, the more i thought about this post, the more it angered me. It is so obnoxiously elitist (not to mention erroneous) to say that "populists" are life's losers. Especially when you selectively define populist to mean just those who disagree with you. You almost always sound the right note, but this one was way off base. And if you can't at the very least see why I would think so, even if you disagree, then you need to recalibrate your thinking, which I mean non-pejoratively and non-condescendingly.

Well first, I have to confess to some initial satisfaction for having been so provocative, which I believe I rarely am (other than to Walter, apparently) and deep down never want to be (Angered you? Really? That wasn't my intent and I apologize). This is obviously on me, but I don't see where I've defined populists to mean "just those who disagree with [me]." I don't think populists are losers in the CB "looser" sense--they're not inferior or despicable people. And I don't think there's a single, all-encompassing definition of a populist. I think a substantial segment of that broad class consists of good, ordinary people who are struggling because of low wages, illness, absurd health care costs, etc. (hence, "no fault of their own"), and in that sense they're losing their fight to achieve the American dream. That's what I mean by life's losers (although there remains hope they can become winners). Sorry if I was unclear, or if the foregoing is still infuriating you, but I'd say it's more due to my weakness in writing than elitism on my part, or so I hope.

It just bugs me that Trump ("And I, alone, can fix it!"), who is as far from being a populist as is humanly possible, has managed to present himself as something wholly at odds with how he spent the first six decades of his life, and his motivation is only self-promotion, not empathy, of which he has none.

[creekster]

Well first, I have to confess to some initial satisfaction for having been so provocative, which I believe I rarely am (other than to Walter, apparently) and deep down never want to be (Angered you? Really? That wasn't my intent and I apologize). This is obviously on me, but I don't see where I've defined populists to mean "just those who disagree with [me]." I don't think populists are losers in the CB "looser" sense--they're not inferior or despicable people. And I don't think there's a single, all-encompassing definition of a populist. I think a substantial segment of that broad class consists of good, ordinary people who are struggling because of low wages, illness, absurd health care costs, etc. (hence, "no fault of their own"), and in that sense they're losing their fight to achieve the American dream. That's what I mean by life's losers (although there remains hope they can become winners). Sorry if I was unclear, or if the foregoing is still infuriating you, but I'd say it's more due to my weakness in writing than elitism on my part, or so I hope.

It just bugs me that Trump ("And I, alone, can fix it!"), who is as far from being a populist as is humanly possible, has managed to present himself as something wholly at odds with how he spent the first six decades of his life, and his motivation is only self-promotion, not empathy, of which he has none.

Yes, it made me angry (although not infuriatingly so). I am so very tired of people who think that because they don't get their hands dirty when they do their job that they are smarter than the rest of the folks out there (which isn't you, necessarily, but your position is consistent with that which I constantly hear around here from those types). The paternalistic elitism that seeped through your post is nothing if not annoying. People can take care of themselves, if you let them. I think they are more likely to be able to do so by getting the government out of their lives rather than injecting more of it. And as annoying as Fox News can be, so can Maddow and MSNBC be obnoxiously smug and self-satisfied. If only the idiots would allow Rachel to help!

I also disagree that those who "put Trump where he is" are not achieving the American dream. I know several people in the midwest who own businesses or work for manufacturing companies who have done very well financially and have achieved as much of the American dream as me or even you and yet who voted for Trump because they are tired of the elitist crap (much of it in the form of economic burdens and regulations) that was being pushed down their throats at every turn. I am tired of it, too.

As to those people you call 'losers' through "no fault of their own," and who you implicitly deride for voting for Trump, I disagree they deserve any criticism at all. If you are burdened by demands that you see as the government's fault, why not vote for Trump or anyone other than Clinton? That Trump is a loathsome person is seen by them as just more of the same (see UT's posts if you don't understand what that means) and so they give it a try. So what?

It's like juries. They always scare me to death. They are always full of people I see as uneducated and lacking focus and I loath putting my client's fate in their hands and yet, at the end of the day (and the trial) they almost always do the right and fair thing, even if they have a hard time explaining it in terms that satisfy me. This nation did not derive its worth from, and was not built on the backs of, just those who were well-educated and sophisticated.

[PaloAltoCougar]

...And as annoying as Fox News can be, so can Maddow and MSNBC be obnoxiously smug and self-satisfied. ...

It's obvious I haven't made myself clear, but in the interest of wrapping this up on common ground, I'll simply note that I agree completely with this. During the 6 pm hour, I often listen to both Hannity and Maddow, back and forth, for as long as I can, but have never been able to endure to the end. And when Sebastian Gorka comes on, I change channels faster than when the 1-877-Kars4Kids jingle begins.

[creekster]

It's obvious I haven't made myself clear, but in the interest of wrapping this up on common ground, I'll simply note that I agree completely with this. During the 6 pm hour, I often listen to both Hannity and Maddow, back and forth, for as long as I can, but have never been able to endure to the end. And when Sebastian Gorka comes on, I change channels faster than when the 1-877-Kars4Kids jingle begins.

I was very disappointed to learn that the Kars for Kids jingle is not played across the country. I feel that everyone should have to share that particualr burden.

[old_gregg]

if you can't at the very least see why I would think so, even if you disagree, then you need to recalibrate your thinking

[All-American]

It's obvious I haven't made myself clear, but in the interest of wrapping this up on common ground, I'll simply note that I agree completely with this. During the 6 pm hour, I often listen to both Hannity and Maddow, back and forth, for as long as I can, but have never been able to endure to the end. And when Sebastian Gorka comes on, I change channels faster than when the 1-877-Kars4Kids jingle begins.

I would love to get those two in a room together.

Well, no, I'd love to get them in a box together.

[old_gregg]

I would love to get those two in a room together.

Well, no, I'd love to get them in a box together.

right, then we can throw the box into a fast moving river

[Jeff Lebowski]

Haha. Wow.

FTR, whataboutism is a pointless and incredibly boring logical fallacy. It requires zero thought or effort. You could program a bot to do it.

Fun fact: it was a central feature of soviet propaganda.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

[New Mexican Disaster]

Haha. Wow.

FTR, whataboutism is a pointless and incredibly boring logical fallacy. It requires zero thought or effort. You could program a bot to do it.

Fun fact: it was a central feature of soviet propaganda.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

It is also a central feature of disciplining kindergartners.

[BlueK]

In my personal experience with a great many family and friends who voted for Trump, they fall in to three categories:

1. Highly intelligent, well educated, fiscally conservative upper middle class (the silent majority independent voter in the US), affable and not prone to extreme views, who conscientiously voted for Trump because they are so sick and tired of the politics as usual dynamic of Washington. Their vote was a metaphorical if not a literal FU. They are pleased that they will reap the economic benefits of their choice, at least for now.

2. The devout/evangelical individual who is so insecure in their faith they truly believe voting for a morally reprehensible individual such as Trump is acceptable, only and exclusively because in occupying the moral high ground (in their minds), the ends they care most deeply about, always justify the means. This group sees nothing but validation in their choice—primarily because Trump will appoint, at a minimum, at least two Supreme Court justices during his presidency.

3. The populists PAC is referring to: Plain and simply, they are ignorant and angry. Heaven help the US if Trump is impeached.

This hits it pretty much right on.

[Moliere]

I forgot, tooblue is also a socialist because he’s Canadian

[BlueK]

I forgot, tooblue is also a socialist because he’s Canadian

I thought he was an American who only writes like a Canadian (honour, colour, centre, favour, etc.)