President Trump: Making America Great Again...

[USUC]

The problem with the term fascist is it has a distinct meaning and philosophy. It doesn't just mean right wing authoritarian. This is classic right wing populism. It's terrible on its own. Hyperbole does nothing to make right wing populists less authoritarian. It just gives them cover as they point to left wing hysteria. Similar to the use of "oligarchy" by Bernie and AOC. Which is used incorrectly by the left because they mean plutarchy but the old socialist catch phrases die hard.

[Maximus]

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[All-American]

Maybe we talk about what that term means.

Fair request. What is your definition of the term "fascism"?

[Northwestcoug]

Is this fascism?

The Justice Department quietly invoked the Alien Enemies act last month to give Immigration and Customs Enforcement agents the power to conduct warrantless searches of people’s homes as long as they suspect them to be an “alien enemy.” USA Today obtained the memo that contained this order on Friday.

https://newrepublic.com/post/194442/...search-warrant

[myboynoah]

Is this fascism?



https://newrepublic.com/post/194442/...search-warrant

Yes. We are not in a war.

[frank ryan]

Fair request. What is your definition of the term "fascism"?

I'm probably more curious to hear yours than mine as you seem immune from alarm regarding the current state of affairs.

We can start with Umberto Eco's list:

• The cult of tradition. “One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The Nazi gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements.”
• The rejection of modernism. “The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.”
• The cult of action for action’s sake. “Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation.”
• Disagreement is treason. “The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge.”
• Fear of difference. “The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.”
• Appeal to social frustration. “One of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups.”
• The obsession with a plot. “Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged.”
• The enemy is both strong and weak. “By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”
• Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. “For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle.”
• Contempt for the weak. “Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology.”
• Everybody is educated to become a hero. “In Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death.”
• Machismo and weaponry. “Machismo implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality.”
• Selective populism. “There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People.”
• Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. “All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning.”

I'd add what happened on J6 was fascistic. It's not a delusion or histrionic to acknowledge that MAGA full of characters who been regarded as fascistic of alt-right since the get-go.

[LVAllen]

Nothing to see here, folks. Just trafficking a 2 year old US citizen in order to try and force her father to turn himself in.

https://www.politico.com/news/2025/0...trump-00311631

[USUC]

I'm probably more curious to hear yours than mine as you seem immune from alarm regarding the current state of affairs.

We can start with Umberto Eco's list:

• The cult of tradition. “One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The Nazi gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements.”
• The rejection of modernism. “The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.”
• The cult of action for action’s sake. “Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation.”
• Disagreement is treason. “The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge.”
• Fear of difference. “The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.”
• Appeal to social frustration. “One of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups.”
• The obsession with a plot. “Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged.”
• The enemy is both strong and weak. “By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”
• Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. “For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle.”
• Contempt for the weak. “Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology.”
• Everybody is educated to become a hero. “In Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death.”
• Machismo and weaponry. “Machismo implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality.”
• Selective populism. “There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People.”
• Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. “All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning.”

I'd add what happened on J6 was fascistic. It's not a delusion or histrionic to acknowledge that MAGA full of characters who been regarded as fascistic of alt-right since the get-go.

We aren't here though. We are at right wing populist authoritarian. And MAGA is way too incompetent to pull this off.

[BlueK]

Fair request. What is your definition of the term "fascism"?

He answered. I don't think it's a stretch to see many if not most of these elements in the MAGA movement.

[BlueK]

We aren't here though. We are at right wing populist authoritarian. And MAGA is way too incompetent to pull this off.

We're fortunately not all the way there. But every fascistic movement has been unique in some ways while sharing all these elements to some degree. MAGA is definitely fascistic in nature without going to the full degree yet. The important thing is it is still progressing in that direction.

[All-American]

I'm probably more curious to hear yours than mine as you seem immune from alarm regarding the current state of affairs.

We can start with Umberto Eco's list:

• The cult of tradition. “One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The Nazi gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements.”
• The rejection of modernism. “The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.”
• The cult of action for action’s sake. “Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation.”
• Disagreement is treason. “The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge.”
• Fear of difference. “The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.”
• Appeal to social frustration. “One of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups.”
• The obsession with a plot. “Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged.”
• The enemy is both strong and weak. “By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”
• Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. “For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle.”
• Contempt for the weak. “Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology.”
• Everybody is educated to become a hero. “In Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death.”
• Machismo and weaponry. “Machismo implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality.”
• Selective populism. “There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People.”
• Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. “All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning.”

I'd add what happened on J6 was fascistic. It's not a delusion or histrionic to acknowledge that MAGA full of characters who been regarded as fascistic of alt-right since the get-go.

Don’t take my decision to limit time arguing on the internet as indicating what I think when I’m not.

My main takeaway from your lengthy, multi-point, factoral list is that the term “fascism” is neither easily defined nor helpfully invoked. I don’t see definitions that clearly include nazi germany, which obviously is, with other regimes usually excluded from the definition (like Stalin’s Russia).

Instead of arguing what this label includes or doesn’t, I’d prefer to focus on the fact that our president is a screwball who thinks rules don’t matter.

[Maximus]

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[frank ryan]

Don’t take my decision to limit time arguing on the internet as indicating what I think when I’m not.

My main takeaway from your lengthy, multi-point, factoral list is that the term “fascism” is neither easily defined nor helpfully invoked. I don’t see definitions that clearly include nazi germany, which obviously is, with other regimes usually excluded from the definition (like Stalin’s Russia).

Instead of arguing what this label includes or doesn’t, I’d prefer to focus on the fact that our president is a screwball who thinks rules don’t matter.

Thanks for your reply but you didn't express what you understand fascism to be.
I think a lot of the points in Eco's statement absolutely fit MAGA.
Nazis weren't the only fascists nor the first ones. They weren't the last either.
A lot more places than Germany and Italy dealt with this.

The US has even been allied with fascist countries. Franco in Spain stands out. Salazar in Portugal. Pinochet in Chile.

There are a lot of other fascist movements during the 30s and 40s that didn't completely take power as well. Oswald Mosley in the UK. The Blueshirts in Ireland. The Sammarinese party was in control of tiny Sam Marino for a few years.

South Africa had the Ossewabrandwag. They almost entered
the war on the side of the axis in ww2.


In Europe neofascist parties are still very much a thing. The Golden Dawn in Greece. The BNP in Britain's and its ideological descendent the UKIP. The National Front in France. AfD in Germany (which Musk amplified and touted. The Brothers of Italy, which currently does have power. A lot of these parties are directly evolved from previous older fascist parties.

Despite what PragerU and Jordan Peterson say, fascism is decidedly far right.

I'm not comparing MAGA to Nazis, but that movement is increasingly fascistic. Our country is imperil for reasons that stretch far beyond Trump. And for Trump, he isn't just a clown or screwball. He is a terrible human being.

[All-American]

Thanks for your reply but you didn't express what you understand fascism to be.
I think a lot of the points in Eco's statement absolutely fit MAGA.
Nazis weren't the only fascists nor the first ones. They weren't the last either.
A lot more places than Germany and Italy dealt with this.

The US has even been allied with fascist countries. Franco in Spain stands out. Salazar in Portugal. Pinochet in Chile.

There are a lot of other fascist movements during the 30s and 40s that didn't completely take power as well. Oswald Mosley in the UK. The Blueshirts in Ireland. The Sammarinese party was in control of tiny Sam Marino for a few years.

South Africa had the Ossewabrandwag. They almost entered
the war on the side of the axis in ww2.


In Europe neofascist parties are still very much a thing. The Golden Dawn in Greece. The BNP in Britain's and its ideological descendent the UKIP. The National Front in France. AfD in Germany (which Musk amplified and touted. The Brothers of Italy, which currently does have power. A lot of these parties are directly evolved from previous older fascist parties.

Despite what PragerU and Jordan Peterson say, fascism is decidedly far right.

I'm not comparing MAGA to Nazis, but that movement is increasingly fascistic. Our country is imperil for reasons that stretch far beyond Trump. And for Trump, he isn't just a clown or screwball. He is a terrible human being.

You’re right, I didn’t—for the reason stated. It’s not a helpful exercise.

With all the different factors and elements that characterize what constitutes a “fascist” regime or distinguishes it from what is not a fascist regime, what gets included or excluded becomes increasingly academic. In the end, it boils down to them doing stuff you don’t like. And non-fascists sometimes do that stuff too.

I’d rather just talk about the stuff we don’t like.

[frank ryan]

You’re right, I didn’t—for the reason stated. It’s not a helpful exercise.

With all the different factors and elements that characterize what constitutes a “fascist” regime or distinguishes it from what is not a fascist regime, what gets included or excluded becomes increasingly academic. In the end, it boils down to them doing stuff you don’t like. And non-fascists sometimes do that stuff too.

I’d rather just talk about the stuff we don’t like.

It is decidedly different than just doing things we don't like. I appreciate your tone in this exchange.

I think it doesn't take an academic understanding to know when to apply the term. It's not more nebulous than the terms socialist or libertarian.