"Reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated" - The Socialism Thread

[frank ryan]

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/16/wo...e-iphone-share

The last paragraph of this passage from the article is unbearably ironic (I bet Canada disagrees!):

Supplies are lacking, electricity goes out, equipment is broken and patients lie in pools of blood as the country’s economic crisis has exploded into a public health emergency.
The crisis is caught now in a political feud between Venezuela’s leftists, who control the presidency, and their rivals in congress. The president’s opponents in the legislature declared a humanitarian crisis in January, and this month passed a law that would allow Venezuela to accept international aid to prop up the health care system.
“This is criminal that we can sit in a country with this much oil, and people are dying for lack of antibiotics,” says Oneida Guaipe, a lawmaker and former hospital union leader.
But Mr. Maduro, who succeeded Hugo Chávez, went on television and rejected the effort, describing the move as a bid to undermine him and privatize the hospital system.
“I doubt that anywhere in the world, except in Cuba, there exists a better health system than this one,” Mr. Maduro said.

Maduro is worse than Chavez. That country is collapsing.

[Moliere]

Yikes. Socialism really sucks good thing Bernie isn't getting the nomination


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[frank ryan]

Yikes. Socialism really sucks good thing Bernie isn't getting the nomination


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Stop being ridiculous. Bernie was not going to lead us down the path of Chavez or Maduro.

[SeattleUte]

Stop being ridiculous. Bernie was not going to lead us down the path of Chavez or Maduro.

I don't know why this is any different than had Bernie said, "I am a member of the Ku Klux Klan, but not the same Ku Klux Klan that burns crosses and lynches black people." His blithe use of "socialism" to describe his politics while being oblivious to the baggage just exposes him as a historical ignoramous.

[creekster]

I don't know why this is any different than had Bernie said, "I am a member of the Ku Klux Klan, but not the same Ku Klux Klan that burns crosses and lynches black people." His blithe use of "socialism" to describe his politics while being oblivious to the baggage just exposes him as a historical ignoramous.

Can you rework that to add something about the nazis, too? It was over the top but not quite far enough.

[myboynoah]

Can you rework that to add something about the nazis, too? It was over the top but not quite far enough.

I don't know, and maybe SU is just looking for a reaction. But don't you find yourself wondering, "How can an avowed socialist get any traction in a U.S. election, let alone in a primary of one of the two major political parties?" Doesn't common sense, let along history, convince anyone willing to do a little exploring disqualify him from support? He espouses a redistribution approach that would send us all back 100 years in economic progress. I guess as long as we all suffer equally, then success will be had.

[creekster]

I don't know, and maybe SU is just looking for a reaction. But don't you find yourself wondering, "How can an avowed socialist get any traction in a U.S. election, let alone in a primary of one of the two major political parties?" Doesn't common sense, let along history, convince anyone willing to do a little exploring disqualify him from support? He espouses a redistribution approach that would send us all back 100 years in economic progress. I guess as long as we all suffer equally, then success will be had.

Oh I agree with your comment here and in general with SU's reaction ot socialism, but I think he undermine's his own point by comparing it to such and odious organization as the KKK. There may be as many types of socialism as there are societies that have tried it. But the KKK is pretty much the KKK everywhere.

But it is hard to believe that socialism gets any traction here. Hillary really is that bad. Like PJ O'Rourke said, she is the second worst thing that could happen to this country.

[Topper]

Oh I agree with your comment here and in general with SU's reaction ot socialism, but I think he undermine's his own point by comparing it to such and odious organization as the KKK. There may be as many types of socialism as there are societies that have tried it. But the KKK is pretty much the KKK everywhere.

But it is hard to believe that socialism gets any traction here. Hillary really is that bad. Like PJ O'Rourke said, she is the second worst thing that could happen to this country.

She is a bad thing and a different sort of bad thing. Trump is a bad thing and a different sort of bad thing.

How we can know which is worse, when we have never seen Trump in government is speculation. We know how bad Hillary is, and it is bad. For all we know, Trump could merely be ineffective, which would be a good thing. It would convert the government for four years to a Parliament.

[frank ryan]

I don't know, and maybe SU is just looking for a reaction. But don't you find yourself wondering, "How can an avowed socialist get any traction in a U.S. election, let alone in a primary of one of the two major political parties?" Doesn't common sense, let along history, convince anyone willing to do a little exploring disqualify him from support? He espouses a redistribution approach that would send us all back 100 years in economic progress. I guess as long as we all suffer equally, then success will be had.

Bernie isn't Che Guevara, he is more like Angela Merkel or Justin Trudeau.

[Topper]

Bernie isn't Che Guevara, he is more like Angela Merkel or Justin Trudeau.

He wouldn't lead us down the path of Madura because Congress wouldn't cooperate and he wouldn't have the power. However, if we adopted his plans, we could suffer significantly.

Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
Winston Churchhill

Equal outcomes socialist bullshit is really that.

[imanihonjin]

Guys, there is a "democratic" right there in front of the socialism Sanders espouses. See, that totally makes it better because democracy is awesome! and its placement in front of socialism should totally calm your concerns about prior problems associated with socialism in general.

[myboynoah]

Bernie isn't Che Guevara, he is more like Angela Merkel or Justin Trudeau.

Che? Yikes. That would really be something.

Yes, Bernie exhibits a very toned-down socialism that sounds good. And Bernie seems like a very likable guy. At least he is sincere, and that is appealing when juxtaposed against HClinton.

When we lived in Paris we traveled to Trier in Germany and found ourselves walking by the Karl Marx House (where Karl grew up). I sauntered in, along with four Chinese guys (I assumed they were pilgrims visiting all the founding sites of communism). Very interesting displays, most dealing with Marx's writings and communism. The kids (my oldest was 12 at the time) were curious why were were in this house and what this was all about. I explained that Marx founded a philosophy that believed people should, as much as possible, share things equally. Well, to kids, that sounds pretty reasonable, especially when we are always telling them to "share your stuff." I guess that is reasonable, but it is in the application that it all goes off the rails, and in some very, very bad ways.

We know all this. That's why I don't understand the appeal.

[frank ryan]

Che? Yikes. That would really be something.

Yes, Bernie exhibits a very toned-down socialism that sounds good. And Bernie seems like a very likable guy. At least he is sincere, and that is appealing when juxtaposed against HClinton.

When we lived in Paris we traveled to Trier in Germany and found ourselves walking by the Karl Marx House (where Karl grew up). I sauntered in, along with four Chinese guys (I assumed they were pilgrims visiting all the founding sites of communism). Very interesting displays, most dealing with Marx's writings and communism. The kids (my oldest was 12 at the time) were curious why were were in this house and what this was all about. I explained that Marx founded a philosophy that believed people should, as much as possible, share things equally. Well, to kids, that sounds pretty reasonable, especially when we are always telling them to "share your stuff." I guess that is reasonable, but it is in the application that it all goes off the rails, and in some very, very bad ways.

We know all this. That's why I don't understand the appeal.

You realize he is for robust (and yes, expensive) social programs and not communism right? We've got our own red scare going on in this thread. Most democracies around the world have parties that are in line with what Bernie wants, and they are not considered extreme parties. The term social democrat might be helpful to you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy

[SeattleUte]

Can you rework that to add something about the nazis, too? It was over the top but not quite far enough.

Well, you missed my point. My point is that "socialism" deserves the same automatic disdain as "KKK"--in a perfect world. The WORD deserves to be as radioactive as KKK. Actually, the Nazis as well as the Soviet Union called themselves socialists. Socialism has killed a lot more people than the KKK. It's killing a lot more people today than the KKK. It's actually not the substance of Bernie's Canada-style vision I'm ridiculing, though I have plenty negative to say about that, but his calling it socialism. They need to call it something else. The fact that Bernie doesn't and gets traction says something disturbing to me about his and his followers' understanding of history.

[Topper]

Well, you missed my point. My point is that "socialism" deserves the same automatic disdain as "KKK"--in a perfect world. The WORD deserves to be as radioactive as KKK. Actually, the Nazis as well as the Soviet Union called themselves socialists. Socialism has killed a lot more people than the KKK. It's killing a lot more people today than the KKK. It's actually not the substance of Bernie's Canada-style vision I'm ridiculing, though I have plenty negative to say about that, but his calling it socialism. They need to call it something else. The fact that Bernie doesn't and gets traction says something disturbing to me about his and his followers' understanding of history.

For those of us remembering the Cold War, France's venture into dark aspects of socialism, and the eastern bloc countries, we cannot imagine why the word, "socialism", has any legitimacy.