WTF are you thinking George Will? It isn't cool to be a victim of sexual assault.

[ERCougar]

It seems that folks are talking past each other and confusing two distinct, and perhaps mutually exclusive, groups in this thread. One group of people have been sexually assaulted. All of them feel a degree of shame and carry emotional wounds from their experience. Out of shame, fear, or whatever, some do not report or even admit their experiences, which is unfortunate on several levels. I'd bet virtually nobody who has really been sexually abused or assaulted is glad it happened because now they're getting attention. The other group of people is the group the George Will crowd is talking about - people who have not been assaulted but claim to be for the attention. Unfortunately, pointing this group of people out casts doubt on everyone in the first group who comes forward, and probably keeps people in the first group from coming forward. This is why Will should have picked another topic to write about.

Agree.
Except that Will's example really was a victim of sexual assault. She may not garner as much sympathy as the girl who's attacked in the middle of the night by a stranger in a dorm room, but the truth is, she said no, and the guy didn't relent. That's sexual assault. The fact that Will doesn't consider her a victim of anything makes Biden's point for him--old white male administrators just don't get it.
So yeah--he should have picked another subject.

[frank ryan]

Since DH called me out on this, I'll chime in for a minute, even if Cardiac already made my point.

Frank, go read Will's column. To call Salon's depiction anything close to accurate is pretty dumb, or at least reveals you didn't really read the article.
That said, I think Will's blithe treatment of sexual assault belies a real lack of empathy. That he thinks the example of the girl who said no and then after repeated attempts, just "let him finish" shows a too harsh judgment of appropriate behavior is, well... concerning. He just doesn't get it.
I have no idea what the true incidence of sexual assault is on campus. I see plenty of alleged victims in the ER and while I try to stay out of guilt/responsibility questions (it's not my job and the last thing I want to do is to spend more unpaid time in court), my experience has left me a little skeptical/jaded. On the other hand, Frank is seeing a much higher proportion of true victims, and I don't doubt there are a large number who don't report for a number of reasons. So the real number is probably somewhere between our two impressions. If we're talking violent rape against an innocent victim who did nothing to suggest she wanted any sort of interaction, then one in five seems far too high. If we're talking having sex with a prior girlfriend in bed who already told you no, or about having sex with a girl who's too drunk to say no, or about copping an uninvited feel at a party, then one in five is a lot more believable. I have no idea what the legal definition of sexual assault is, but I don't think any of those behaviors are ok, and I think administration should be pretty aggressive about dealing with complaints about them. If students get the message that they should be pretty damn sure that their partner truly wants to have sex before they go at it, that's not a bad thing.

Thanks for this post. I really appreciate your insight. I did read Will's column. Thanks for validating how my professional experience might differ with yours.

It seems that folks are talking past each other and confusing two distinct, and perhaps mutually exclusive, groups in this thread. One group of people have been sexually assaulted. All of them feel a degree of shame and carry emotional wounds from their experience. Out of shame, fear, or whatever, some do not report or even admit their experiences, which is unfortunate on several levels. I'd bet virtually nobody who has really been sexually abused or assaulted is glad it happened because now they're getting attention. The other group of people is the group the George Will crowd is talking about - people who have not been assaulted but claim to be for the attention. Unfortunately, pointing this group of people out casts doubt on everyone in the first group who comes forward, and probably keeps people in the first group from coming forward. This is why Will should have picked another topic to write about.

Great post. Will stepped on a landline.

[MarkGrace]

Thanks for this post. I really appreciate your insight. I did read Will's column. Thanks for validating how my professional experience might differ with yours.


Great post. Will stepped on a landline.

Those still exist?

[frank ryan]

Those still exist?

Lol !!!!

[Donuthole]

Agree.
Except that Will's example really was a victim of sexual assault. She may not garner as much sympathy as the girl who's attacked in the middle of the night by a stranger in a dorm room, but the truth is, she said no, and the guy didn't relent. That's sexual assault. The fact that Will doesn't consider her a victim of anything makes Biden's point for him--old white male administrators just don't get it.
So yeah--he should have picked another subject.

I guess this is where we disagree. She said no, and he stopped-he relented, at least initially. He started again, and then she didn't say no. Why didn't she say no again? Because it was more convenient to just let him get his rocks off? Because she possibly wanted to have sex too, in spite of the boundaries they had allegedly established? I don't know.

But with two people who have been in a prolonged sexual relationship, and where her actions of getting into bed with him--not really the actions of someone who is trying to maintain a platonic friendship, btw--could reasonably be interpreted as an invitation to get busy, I think there is a little bit more of a burden on her to make sure he knows where she stands before something like that amounts to sexual assault. Anyone who has been in a sexual relationship knows that sometimes a woman--or a man for that matter--may not initially be interested in sex, and that a little foreplay can get the person interested. When that happens, that's consensual sex, not sexual assault, IMO. Maybe that makes me an old white male administrator. I guess that makes my wife an old white administrator, too, since she just read the scenario in Will's column and doesn't think it constitutes sexual assault.

[ERCougar]

There are a couple of key differences though. If we take her at her word, she indicated that not only was she not in the mood, so to speak, she was never going to be--she wanted to go back to being friends. So they aren't really in an ongoing sexual relationship and there's no reason for him to think that she just needed a little foreplay. Second, they're at her house, in her bed. Where else is she supposed to go and why is she the one who has to leave? I think it's not a far stretch to imagine him agreeing not to try anything and her just trying to be the nice friend and too tired to really insist he go home.
I'm not defending her actions--like I said, she's not going to garner a lot of sympathy. Who knows what really happened, but at the very least, her claim warrants investigation. Instead, when she reported it, it was completely ignored. That's a problem.

[Pheidippides]

There are a couple of key differences though. If we take her at her word, she indicated that not only was she not in the mood, so to speak, she was never going to be--she wanted to go back to being friends. So they aren't really in an ongoing sexual relationship and there's no reason for him to think that she just needed a little foreplay. Second, they're at her house, in her bed. Where else is she supposed to go and why is she the one who has to leave? I think it's not a far stretch to imagine him agreeing not to try anything and her just trying to be the nice friend and too tired to really insist he go home.
I'm not defending her actions--like I said, she's not going to garner a lot of sympathy. Who knows what really happened, but at the very least, her claim warrants investigation. Instead, when she reported it, it was completely ignored. That's a problem.

The example in the article is rape according to the two bar exams I've taken. No means no. It's really not any more complicated than that, and in fact that exact scenario was the object of study in at least my law school's crim law class.

I've heard the one in four stat since I was a teenager. While the fact that it's from only two universities gives me pause, it's not like women go around wearing a scarlet R. My pro bono work for the first 5 years of my career focused on violence against women, and while I don't disagree that there are false reports for whatever reason, there are far more rapes that either are not reported or not prosecuted. I personally know several women who were raped, reported to the police in a timely fashion (as in day of or next day) and saw nothing happen despite pressing the issue. One of these women was 12 at the time, and her rapist was a neighbor in his 30s. Another was only a couple of years older, with the rapist being a relative in his 40s. Another was brutally raped by her husband - I actually had to interview her and draft her affidavit, which was one of the more difficult things I've ever had to do professionally. A fourth was in high school, as was her rapist (an ex boyfriend), and she had physical issues as a result for years. All of these were reported to the police immediately, rape kits were administered, and nothing was done. One of these happened in Washington, one in Idaho, one in Utah, and one in Texas.

That's 0-4. Four rapes, four reports, four rape kits, four jurisdictions and zero action. Two of them involved child predators, for crying out loud. You're going to have a hard time convincing me that there's not a real issue here.

In my view, part of the problem is that rape is often viewed as a random crime in which a creepy guy in a hoodie attacks women at night in a park. This is only a very, very small fraction of rapes - most of the time the rape is by an acquaintance.

[Moliere]

So "no" really means "maybe in 5 minutes"?

[frank ryan]

Frank, go read Will's column. To call Salon's depiction anything close to accurate is pretty dumb, or at least reveals you didn't really read the article.
That said, I think Will's blithe treatment of sexual assault belies a real lack of empathy. That he thinks the example of the girl who said no and then after repeated attempts, just "let him finish" shows a too harsh judgment of appropriate behavior is, well... concerning. He just doesn't get it.
I have no idea what the true incidence of sexual assault is on campus. I see plenty of alleged victims in the ER and while I try to stay out of guilt/responsibility questions (it's not my job and the last thing I want to do is to spend more unpaid time in court), my experience has left me a little skeptical/jaded. On the other hand, Frank is seeing a much higher proportion of true victims, and I don't doubt there are a large number who don't report for a number of reasons. So the real number is probably somewhere between our two impressions. If we're talking violent rape against an innocent victim who did nothing to suggest she wanted any sort of interaction, then one in five seems far too high. If we're talking having sex with a prior girlfriend in bed who already told you no, or about having sex with a girl who's too drunk to say no, or about copping an uninvited feel at a party, then one in five is a lot more believable. I have no idea what the legal definition of sexual assault is, but I don't think any of those behaviors are ok, and I think administration should be pretty aggressive about dealing with complaints about them. If students get the message that they should be pretty damn sure that their partner truly wants to have sex before they go at it, that's not a bad thing.

It seems that folks are talking past each other and confusing two distinct, and perhaps mutually exclusive, groups in this thread. One group of people have been sexually assaulted. All of them feel a degree of shame and carry emotional wounds from their experience. Out of shame, fear, or whatever, some do not report or even admit their experiences, which is unfortunate on several levels. I'd bet virtually nobody who has really been sexually abused or assaulted is glad it happened because now they're getting attention. The other group of people is the group the George Will crowd is talking about - people who have not been assaulted but claim to be for the attention. Unfortunately, pointing this group of people out casts doubt on everyone in the first group who comes forward, and probably keeps people in the first group from coming forward. This is why Will should have picked another topic to write about.

The example in the article is rape according to the two bar exams I've taken. No means no. It's really not any more complicated than that, and in fact that exact scenario was the object of study in at least my law school's crim law class.

I've heard the one in four stat since I was a teenager. While the fact that it's from only two universities gives me pause, it's not like women go around wearing a scarlet R. My pro bono work for the first 5 years of my career focused on violence against women, and while I don't disagree that there are false reports for whatever reason, there are far more rapes that either are not reported or not prosecuted. I personally know several women who were raped, reported to the police in a timely fashion (as in day of or next day) and saw nothing happen despite pressing the issue. One of these women was 12 at the time, and her rapist was a neighbor in his 30s. Another was only a couple of years older, with the rapist being a relative in his 40s. Another was brutally raped by her husband - I actually had to interview her and draft her affidavit, which was one of the more difficult things I've ever had to do professionally. A fourth was in high school, as was her rapist (an ex boyfriend), and she had physical issues as a result for years. All of these were reported to the police immediately, rape kits were administered, and nothing was done. One of these happened in Washington, one in Idaho, one in Utah, and one in Texas.

That's 0-4. Four rapes, four reports, four rape kits, four jurisdictions and zero action. Two of them involved child predators, for crying out loud. You're going to have a hard time convincing me that there's not a real issue here.

In my view, part of the problem is that rape is often viewed as a random crime in which a creepy guy in a hoodie attacks women at night in a park. This is only a very, very small fraction of rapes - most of the time the rape is by an acquaintance.

Something that maybe isn't clear when Will talks about the supposed 20 percent assault rate of women in college, is that the statistic includes attempted sexual assaults too. I have no problem believing that number. Non-reported rapes far outnumber false reports.

[ERCougar]

Non-reported rapes far outnumber false reports.

And here's where we disagree, or at least I don't really know, and I'm not sure how anyone really ever would. You never see these false reports, but I do. all. the. time.

[frank ryan]

And here's where we disagree, or at least I don't really know, and I'm not sure how anyone really ever would. You never see these false reports, but I do. all. the. time.

And you never see people who have hidden and tried to ignore away their horrific trauma. Social scientists have always estimated that unreported rapes dwarf false ones.

You have never met with those people by the nature of your job. This is just conjecture, but I think a lot of those who come into the er and falsely report rapes have been raped before.

[ERCougar]

And you never see people who have hidden and tried to ignore away their horrific trauma. Social scientists have always estimated that unreported rapes dwarf false ones.

You have never met with those people by the nature of your job. This is just conjecture, but I think a lot of those who come into the er and falsely report rapes have been raped before.

Right. That's what I was pointing out earlier--we see two different ends of the problem, so the truth is somewhere in between.
You may be right, but I still don't see how anyone could ever know that. Honestly, if that 12% number is correct, you probably are right--I wouldn't say that 88% of the cases I see are false reports. But I'm not a cop, and if you think I'm jaded, try the guys who have to answer all the reports, not just the ones who are actually willing to undergo a medical examination.

[Pheidippides]

Right. That's what I was pointing out earlier--we see two different ends of the problem, so the truth is somewhere in between.
You may be right, but I still don't see how anyone could ever know that. Honestly, if that 12% number is correct, you probably are right--I wouldn't say that 88% of the cases I see are false reports. But I'm not a cop, and if you think I'm jaded, try the guys who have to answer all the reports, not just the ones who are actually willing to undergo a medical examination.

I've read that the prevalence of false reports is much more prevalent in cultures in which a premium is placed on chastity, for some of the reasons suggested. I've also read that underreporting is the most prevalent in the same cultures. I don't know if that is true, but a relative of mine worked for BYU police circa 2000 or so, and he said that they absolutely fudged the numbers to look better than they were.

[byu71]

I've read that the prevalence of false reports is much more prevalent in cultures in which a premium is placed on chastity, for some of the reasons suggested. I've also read that underreporting is the most prevalent in the same cultures. I don't know if that is true, but a relative of mine worked for BYU police circa 2000 or so, and he said that they absolutely fudged the numbers to look better than they were.

When the "scandal" took place at BYU I asked a friend who was a senior police official would the odds be higher in Provo or Utah for that matter of a false accusation? He said definitely. There are those who would far rather be thought to be assaulted than admit consentual sexual conduct. That was also confirmed to me years later by a member of the police force in Ogden.

This is a tough one because I have daughters and grandaughters and thinking about them being sexually assaulted makes me actually ill. I would hate to think legitimate cases go unreported or disgarded.

It is like the quandry with accusations of child molestation. What a horrible act. Yet, what terrific pain is caused for someone falsely accused.

[pellegrino]

Haven't some of you been aware of LDS women who take things a little too far with their boyfriend, feel guilty about it, and then either consciously lie or delude themselves into thinking they were sexually assaulted?

I knew a nutso girl in HS who claimed that a guy had sexually assaulted her and it was clearly an attempt to get attention and sympathy, or possibly to assuage guilt.

You can also get money for claiming to be raped. http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/57...eorge.html.csp

I knew/dated at least three such women before I turned 23.

No, I was not the male they accused of assaulting them.