Ukraine - somebody explain to me

[Jeff Lebowski]

Totalitarian states closely resemble one another whether theocracies, fascist, communist or whatever. The Nazi party was essentially a religious cult, with a Messianic leader; the Soviet Union was not much different. Marxists even spoke in religious jargon -- faith in the abilitiy of the movement to succeed and take over the world, Lenin was Moses, Joseph Smith, etc. Hitler, Mao, Staliin et al. were atheists because religion rivaled their claim to power and authority.

It's ridiculous to associate the secular, empirically driven culture of the west with the atheism of totalitarian leaders. The latter are in the tradition of medieval norms as we see today in the Middle East, where they still have kings who wield power, state religion, deprive women and minorities civil liberies, and put heretics to death.

Solon agrees with me.

oh brother.

[pellegrino]

oh brother.

While a bit over the top, he's right. There are, unfortunately, far too many parallels between LDS culture, its values and fascist culture. this is particularly evident in the way Mormons treat and approach leaders and how Mormons view gender roles.

[Clark Addison]

Totalitarian states closely resemble one another whether theocracies, fascist, communist or whatever. The Nazi party was essentially a religious cult, with a Messianic leader; the Soviet Union was not much different. Marxists even spoke in religious jargon -- faith in the abilitiy of the movement to succeed and take over the world, Lenin was Moses, Joseph Smith, etc. Hitler, Mao, Staliin et al. were atheists because religion rivaled their claim to power and authority.

It's ridiculous to associate the secular, empirically driven culture of the west with the atheism of totalitarian leaders. The latter are in the tradition of medieval norms as we see today in the Middle East, where they still have kings who wield power, state religion, deprive women and minorities civil liberies, and put heretics to death.

Solon agrees with me.

Nice. A No True Scotsman argument, with an Appeal to Authority thrown in at the end. I think maybe I could make out a Strawman and Moral Equivalence, but they are more subtle. I like it!

[New Mexican Disaster]

While a bit over the top, he's right. There are, unfortunately, far too many parallels between LDS culture, its values and fascist culture. this is particularly evident in the way Mormons treat and approach leaders and how Mormons view gender roles.

I think you are looking for the word authoritarian and not fascist here.

[Green Monstah]

I'm a foreign policy neophyte, so indulge me.

I don't get why people are worried that the west looks "weak." Either we're weak or we're not. Simply because we don't engage in public penis measurements doesn't mean we're weak, does it?

I'm always skeptical that promotion of liberty and democracy are merely excuses to veil some other more nefarious--or at the very least, less principled--reason to use military force/intervention.

[USUC]

I'm a foreign policy neophyte, so indulge me.

I don't get why people are worried that the west looks "weak." Either we're weak or we're not. Simply because we don't engage in public penis measurements doesn't mean we're weak, does it?

I'm always skeptical that promotion of liberty and democracy are merely excuses to veil some other more nefarious--or at the very least, less principled--reason to use military force/intervention.

Accusations of the West (or Obama specifically) being weak are mainly from hawkish foreign-policy Republicans (I'm beginning to believe Rand Paul is the last hope for the GOP). Not much the US could have done even if they were more suspicious and confrontational with Russia. Putin is a psychopath and, according to Angela Merkel, genuinely out of touch with reality.

Sanctions against Russia would be largely ineffective outside of maybe excluding Russian banks from international finance. EU has as much to lose from Russia cutting of gas supplies as Russia does from sanctions. Again, I think even if no sanctions are levied Russia will still come out the loser here. Crimea probably could have voted its way to independence or integration into Russia (the same for heavily Russian speaking eastern Ukrainian provinces) but a vote for secession in a territory under foreign occupation is less than credible. Now its not an option. Ukraine is now, more than ever, leaning towards the EU.

[SeattleUte]

I think you are looking for the word authoritarian and not fascist here.

No, in addition to the authoritarianism, there is an obssessive preoccupation with race, gender and sexual morality. Who did Hitler most virulenty attack in his speeches? Not Christianity. He attacked the "mongrel" capitalist societies in the UK and the United States. Fascism was all about rebellion against these empiracal, market driven socieities and their egalitarian values.

We've had this discussion before. Solon?

[SCcoug]

Accusations of the West (or Obama specifically) being weak are mainly from hawkish foreign-policy Republicans (I'm beginning to believe Rand Paul is the last hope for the GOP). Not much the US could have done even if they were more suspicious and confrontational with Russia. Putin is a psychopath and, according to Angela Merkel, genuinely out of touch with reality.

Sanctions against Russia would be largely ineffective outside of maybe excluding Russian banks from international finance. EU has as much to lose from Russia cutting of gas supplies as Russia does from sanctions. Again, I think even if no sanctions are levied Russia will still come out the loser here. Crimea probably could have voted its way to independence or integration into Russia (the same for heavily Russian speaking eastern Ukrainian provinces) but a vote for secession in a territory under foreign occupation is less than credible. Now its not an option. Ukraine is now, more than ever, leaning towards the EU.

Not much we could have done with the hand we have now but that is symptom of a steady weakening of US influence. This is the result of years of foreign policy ineptitude (going back to gazing in Putin's soul).

[Goatnapper'96]

Not much we could have done with the hand we have now but that is symptom of a steady weakening of US influence. This is the result of years of foreign policy ineptitude (going back to gazing in Putin's soul).

I think there is a great deal more to it than foreign policy ineptitude, which I think has happened. But I think the fundamental ineptitude is the elites have yet to catch the new vision of the people. Foreign policy decisions lose credibility and legitimacy because the masses don't stay behind them very long if there is not a direct connection to how this can or will impact my life. This trend is happening not just within the US culture but also within those of our allies. Further, with the growth of the world economy if countries want to isolate a rogue state for naughty behavior that economic isolation can and will result in pain for those countries doing the isolating. This does not sit will with the masses who are struggling to find how what is happening on the other side of the world impacts their lives in the first place and now their natural gas prices are going through the roof because Russia can no longer flood the market with its cheap natural gas. Better leadership would help but I wonder how much. I don't think the people of the US or Great Britain of france fear Putin's influence in their own lives enough to sacrifice what it will take to stop him.

[Jeff Lebowski]

We've had this discussion before. Solon?

You seem desperate. PM me and I can give you his cell number.

[Moliere]

Accusations of the West (or Obama specifically) being weak are mainly from hawkish foreign-policy Republicans (I'm beginning to believe Rand Paul is the last hope for the GOP). Not much the US could have done even if they were more suspicious and confrontational with Russia. Putin is a psychopath and, according to Angela Merkel, genuinely out of touch with reality.

Sanctions against Russia would be largely ineffective outside of maybe excluding Russian banks from international finance. EU has as much to lose from Russia cutting of gas supplies as Russia does from sanctions. Again, I think even if no sanctions are levied Russia will still come out the loser here. Crimea probably could have voted its way to independence or integration into Russia (the same for heavily Russian speaking eastern Ukrainian provinces) but a vote for secession in a territory under foreign occupation is less than credible. Now its not an option. Ukraine is now, more than ever, leaning towards the EU.

I'm speculating but it seems Putin has the EU by the balls as it provides such a large amount of energy to the continent. It's even gotten worse since Germany and the like have began to shut down nuclear power plants and they rely more heavily on natural gas, most of which comes from Russia and Russian pipelines. There's currently a desire to bring in more gas from the middle east (Qatar?) however the infrastructure doesn't exist yet, but there are proposals to build a gas pipeline through some pretty hostile regions and ultimately into Turkey and Europe. Such a pipeline would weaken Russia quite a bit since right now pretty much all gas has to flow through Russia to get to Europe.

[Donuthole]

Totalitarian states closely resemble one another whether theocracies, fascist, communist or whatever. The Nazi party was essentially a religious cult, with a Messianic leader; the Soviet Union was not much different. Marxists even spoke in religious jargon -- faith in the abilitiy of the movement to succeed and take over the world, Lenin was Moses, Joseph Smith, etc. Hitler, Mao, Staliin et al. were atheists because religion rivaled their claim to power and authority.

It's ridiculous to associate the secular, empirically driven culture of the west with the atheism of totalitarian leaders. The latter are in the tradition of medieval norms as we see today in the Middle East, where they still have kings who wield power, state religion, deprive women and minorities civil liberies, and put heretics to death.

Solon agrees with me.

No, in addition to the authoritarianism, there is an obssessive preoccupation with race, gender and sexual morality. Who did Hitler most virulenty attack in his speeches? Not Christianity. He attacked the "mongrel" capitalist societies in the UK and the United States. Fascism was all about rebellion against these empiracal, market driven socieities and their egalitarian values.

We've had this discussion before. Solon?

You're doing it wrong.

[byu71]

I'm a foreign policy neophyte, so indulge me.

I don't get why people are worried that the west looks "weak." Either we're weak or we're not. Simply because we don't engage in public penis measurements doesn't mean we're weak, does it?

I'm always skeptical that promotion of liberty and democracy are merely excuses to veil some other more nefarious--or at the very least, less principled--reason to use military force/intervention.

I personally would not use the term weak. I would use the word "priority". Either because of leadership, public opinion swayed by long lasting war and the press or because we are in a "me" first mode, America is not going to use it "non weakness" as it has done in the past.

I would bet if you took a poll you would find most Americans couldn't care less whether Russia takes over Crimeria. Probably don't care a whole lot if they get the Ukraine. By care, I mean care enough to make sacrifices.

Since this is where we are at and it probably isn't going to change, let's get the pipeline done so we aren't held hostage anymore by the energy producing countries. The middle east, russia, venezuela, etc. None of them are friends and we can exert more influence through energy than we can by military strength that the whole world knows we aren't going to use for anyone but ourselves.

I hope the Europeans see the trend and realize when they get run over again, we aren't coming to help.

[old_gregg]

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/201...belbek-airport

must be tough to march, dragging those meaty clackers around.

[Goatnapper'96]

I personally would not use the term weak. I would use the word "priority". Either because of leadership, public opinion swayed by long lasting war and the press or because we are in a "me" first mode, America is not going to use it "non weakness" as it has done in the past.

I would bet if you took a poll you would find most Americans couldn't care less whether Russia takes over Crimeria. Probably don't care a whole lot if they get the Ukraine. By care, I mean care enough to make sacrifices.

Since this is where we are at and it probably isn't going to change, let's get the pipeline done so we aren't held hostage anymore by the energy producing countries. The middle east, russia, venezuela, etc. None of them are friends and we can exert more influence through energy than we can by military strength that the whole world knows we aren't going to use for anyone but ourselves.

I hope the Europeans see the trend and realize when they get run over again, we aren't coming to help.

I thought they had windmills all over Europe. Shouldn't Russia not be relevant by now?