Here is a good example why raising taxes on the rich won't work

[Mormon Red Death]

I'm with SU. It's hard to argue against some form of progressive taxes, but they need to be kept in reasonable constraints.

The one angle I haven't seen discussed thus far is the wisdom of putting all the eggs in one basket.

During the legislative session in Salt Lake, Senator Allen Christensen proposed a hefty tax hike on cigarettes. The taxpayers association came to the committee meeting to speak against the bill, not because they in any way were going to bat for big tobacco, but because they were concerned at the prospects of focusing a prohibitively higher tax burden on a narrow group. It's a recipe for disaster. The bill died in committee on a 4-3 vote.

It is generally wise tax policy to tax with low rates across broad groups rather than high rates on a narrow group. That way, if an economic shock happens to hit one group harder than another, you have something to counterbalance it. It's simply diversity in investiture, and it's no less applicable in taxation than in managing your 401(k).

Do you have an ethical reason for a progressive tax? Or is your reason "because they have more money"?

[cowboy]

Do you have an ethical reason for a progressive tax? Or is your reason "because they have more money"?

It's about motivation. Critical mass is easier to accumulate when it is taxed very little or not at all, so more people are motivated to take risk and begin ventures.

[byu71]

Do you have an ethical reason for a progressive tax? Or is your reason "because they have more money"?

I think ethically those better off should help those less fortunate. I don't like politicians making those decisions as I just have little respect for most politicians. I am quite happy with the clergy making such decisions even though they also have their failings.

However through whatever means, I think ethically it is incumbent on me to give to the less fortunate. So in that sense, it is ethical, perhaps not the most ethical way though.

[il Padrino Ute]

I agree with the Gates family that our tax system is atavistic and hypocritical. This bluest of states taxes us heavily, but through a sales tax; a consumption tax is not progressive.

Perhaps you and Gates ought to lobby for lower consumption taxes and to implement an income tax.

[SeattleUte]

Do you have an ethical reason for a progressive tax? Or is your reason "because they have more money"?

Of course there's an eithical reason. Good Lord. Have you read the New Testament?

[SeattleUte]

Perhaps you and Gates ought to lobby for lower consumption taxes and to implement an income tax.

The Gates have been lobbying for that. It's the old man's pet peeve.

[Mormon Red Death]

I think ethically those better off should help those less fortunate. I don't like politicians making those decisions as I just have little respect for most politicians. I am quite happy with the clergy making such decisions even though they also have their failings.

However through whatever means, I think ethically it is incumbent on me to give to the less fortunate. So in that sense, it is ethical, perhaps not the most ethical way though.

is it nice for rich people to help the poor? Yes.... Is it ethical to force the rich to help the poor? of course not

[Mormon Red Death]

Of course there's an eithical reason. Good Lord. Have you read the New Testament?

Is it ethical to force the rich to help the poor? If a rich man doesn't believe int he new testament should he be forced to give?

[il Padrino Ute]

The Gates have been lobbying for that. It's the old man's pet peeve.

Good for him and I believe that you would be for it as well.

My point was more that from my perspective, it's easier to support a progressive income tax when one isn't paying income tax at all.

[byu71]

One of my buddies sent me a clip that was on Lou Dobbs. It shows what proposals are being made as far as undocumenteds go. One item is amnesty for gang members. Anyway I mentioned via e-mail, what can we do. He said he is seriously considering moving.

I almost feel quilty saying this, but for the first time in my life I am thinking about where could I go outside of America. I blame the media and the politicians, but I am not someone who laughs anymoe at someone who says they might leave. This buddy of mine says he has a friend who has left and gone to Costa Rica. Even at the margins if you start losing the most productive folks and trade them for many more of the less productive folks, you are asking for trouble.

[SeattleUte]

Is it ethical to force the rich to help the poor? If a rich man doesn't believe int he new testament should he be forced to give?

It's not just the New Testament. That's an example. I think government helps the needy for practical reasons (nobody wants civil unrest, fascism, those kinds of evils) as well as ethical ones. It seems I read repeatedly Mormons writing that laws reflect moral values. It's true! Society wants to play Robin Hood to some extent and does, partly because it's right.

Look, if you want to argue whether a progressive tax rate is good or bad, I'm not interested. It's not a close issue. You are the only one I know who still regards Ayn Rand as a prophet. In fact she and her acolyte Greenspan couldn't be held in lower regard universally. He's the butt of jokes and even did a pathetic mea culpa.

[Indy Coug]

It's not just the New Testament. That's an example. I think government helps the needy for practical reasons (nobody wants civil unrest, fascism, those kinds of evils) as well as ethical ones. It seems I read repeatedly Mormons writing that laws reflect moral values. It's true! Society wants to play Robin Hood to some extent and does, partly because it's right.

Look, if you want to argue whether a progressive tax rate is good or bad, I'm not interested. It's not a close issue. You are the only one I know who still regards Ayn Rand as a prophet. In fact she and her acolyte Greenspan couldn't be held in lower regard universally. He's the butt of jokes and even did a pathetic mea culpa.

Greenspan's mea culpa was about flat tax rates?

[All-American]

Do you have an ethical reason for a progressive tax? Or is your reason "because they have more money"?

Let's say, hypothetically, that we had a totally flat tax. Let's say your income was taxed at a 10% rate. Let's say person A earns $30,000 a year, while person B earns $30,000,000. Person A will pay $3,000 in taxes, and Person B, $3,000,000.

That's all well and good, but the truth of the matter is, Person A will miss that $3,000 a lot more than Person B will miss that $3,000,000. Even if the tax rate were, numerically speaking, identical, the tax burden would fall much harder on Person A than Person B.

The ethical argument for a progressive tax is that the way to measure the impact of the tax burden is not necessarily the rate at which you pay taxes.

That's not to say that a very steep progressive tax is necessarily the way to go, either. I like Utah's system, personally. Utah has a nominally "flat" tax, but offers tax credits to tax brackets of lower income. The result is a system that you might as well call progressive, but tries to tax at lower rates across broad groups.

[All-American]

is it nice for rich people to help the poor? Yes.... Is it ethical to force the rich to help the poor? of course not

Good point. Especially since we live in a nation where the rich have basically zero impact on politics, and therefore have no say in who pays what tax.

[Mormon Red Death]

It's not just the New Testament. That's an example. I think government helps the needy for practical reasons (nobody wants civil unrest, fascism, those kinds of evils) as well as ethical ones. It seems I read repeatedly Mormons writing that laws reflect moral values. It's true! Society wants to play Robin Hood to some extent and does, partly because it's right.

You list practical reasons but no ethical reasons. I guess you prove my point. It isn't ethical but because the government can it does.

Look, if you want to argue whether a progressive tax rate is good or bad, I'm not interested. It's not a close issue. You are the only one I know who still regards Ayn Rand as a prophet. In fact she and her acolyte Greenspan couldn't be held in lower regard universally. He's the butt of jokes and even did a pathetic mea culpa.

Lets see.... He was over the federal reserve for 19 years over which most was fantastic growth. I'm sure its all his fault a bunch of banks lent money to people for houses they couldn't afford.

As for Ayn Rand how can you can comment on her as you have read NOTHING she is has written?

Btw.. who gives a shit if people hold her in low regard universally. In fact that would put her in pretty good company.