Fast Food Labor Strike

[Uncle Ted]

I think more automation will initially be a boon to the US. China has had a booming economy for basically two reasons: 1) Cheap, plentiful labor; and 2) A government that doesn't give a shit about pollution and generally tries to clear the way for more manufacturing all the time.

More automation means less reliance on cheap labor and at some point it then becomes more profitable to bring the fabrication back to the US. There is some evidence that this is already happening. Furthermore, since China has increasingly been getting a taste of the good life, they're going to start demanding that they don't live in the equivalent filth found in a late 19th century New York City tenement.

Yes, automation is already starting to take a bite out of china's manufacturing. For example, Apple recently announced it will soon be manufacturing Macbook Pro's in the USA (using a highly automated plant). Also, the new Motorola Moto X smartphone is being manufactured in DFW (and at a lower cost). Note that the labor cost is a small percentage of the Moto X which implies automation. If this trend continues then China could be in a world of hurt in addition to its looming demographics problem (China doesn't have nearly enough young to feed its old).

[wuapinmon]

Let's uninvent this first and work our way from there.

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I have, sitting on my desk right now, perhaps the only copy left of walkie-talkie by The Flowbees.

[Tim]

I have, sitting on my desk right now, perhaps the only copy left of walkie-talkie by The Flowbees.

Classic record.

[CardiacCoug]

I met a Russian guy on my mission in Germany who had been a Soviet engineer before the USSR dissolved. I couldn't recall if he worked in prosthetics or what, but he told me the big challenge with this kind of stuff is engineering the strength and dexterity in the same size as a human arm and hand. He said he just didn't know how it would be possible to engineer a Terminator type hand and arm that would have any strength combined with precise movement. Machines can produce plenty of power in a compact space (like a vacuum cleaner or something), but it typically only goes to one set kind of motion, kind of like the Chinese noodle slicer. When there's more than one type of movement, you have to deal with hydraulics and lubrication.

We're probably pretty close to the artificial intelligence side of things, but I imagine we're still a ways off on the mechanical side.

Yep that makes sense.

I've always thought that sports skills like hitting a baseball etc. are way, way more impressive (as far as what would be required to duplicate them with a robot/computer) than anything we do from a cognitive standpoint. Computers can already beat any person at chess or math. But try making a human-like robot that could play baseball or basketball at a high level. We're probably hundreds of years away from that I would think.

[SCcoug]

Yep that makes sense.

I've always thought that sports skills like hitting a baseball etc. are way, way more impressive (as far as what would be required to duplicate them with a robot/computer) than anything we do from a cognitive standpoint. Computers can already beat any person at chess or math. But try making a human-like robot that could play baseball or basketball at a high level. We're probably hundreds of years away from that I would think.

Hundreds? Maybe a few decades imo. There are already robots that can do pitching, catching and hitting.

[CardiacCoug]

Hundreds? Maybe a few decades imo. There are already robots that can do pitching, catching and hitting.

Sure, depends how sophisticated the robot is supposed to be. One that could stand in a batters box like a person and hit pitches and then run the bases, reacting to what's going on in the field? Or get on a basketball court and do everything good basketball players do in a game? Seems like that combination of artificial intelligence and robotics (strength and dexterity) is a ways off to me but I'm no expert.

[Uncle Ted]

Yep that makes sense.

I've always thought that sports skills like hitting a baseball etc. are way, way more impressive (as far as what would be required to duplicate them with a robot/computer) than anything we do from a cognitive standpoint. Computers can already beat any person at chess or math. But try making a human-like robot that could play baseball or basketball at a high level. We're probably hundreds of years away from that I would think.

Who wants to watch a bunch of robots play baseball or basketball? We want robots to mow our lawns and clean our house so we can play more baseball or basketball.

[frank ryan]

By having a living wage for all of us.
The industrial revolution isn't really analagous, IMO, because in the very near future, robots should be able to replicate everything that a human can do, even creative tasks, and do them better. If you can't imagine most, if not all, of your current job duties being automated to a robot, you're not very aware of the capabilities of technology. There's a real resource allocation problem coming and I certainly don't want to set the precedent of "let the market determine what you're worth" to solve it.

It is a horrible recipe for political stability to have a huge chunk of the population locked into poverty and hopelessness.

Because letting a person in DC decide what you are worth is a much better solution? Come to think of it, maybe we can have a robot make these determinations since they will be so apt to do everything else.

I see.....so when a problem happens we leave it to the almighty government to solve all of our problems. Got it. We should essentially cede all our liberties to the government to protect us from any misfortune....especially given its spectacular performance on programs it currently operates.

Yes, ER was saying exactly that. Good god man Thomas Paine was for a minimum wage. Please spare us all the Glenn Beck 101 bullshit.

[Moliere]

Our experiences color our reactions to policy. Sociology tries to give us data so that we don't have to rely on anecdotes or generalizations about an issue. With data, policy becomes informed policy. Interpreting data isn't easy though, and stuff can be spun however we want to. I'm more sympathetic to fast food workers' plight because I worked for McDonald's for five years and Pizza Hut for six years while I was getting educated. I understand, very well, what kind of people work at those places.

There are people in this world so cripplingly unintelligent that that kind of unskilled work is about all that they're ever going to master. They don't have the reasoning skills to make sound life choices. You can't educate everyone into prosperity. The question before policymakers, really, is how do you help people who are just too dumb to get promoted into management not starve or become a burden on the State while they're trying to work for a living? Should a living wage be a right? Will inflation crush any attempts to raise the lowest level of wages? How has the minimum wage kept pace with inflation since its creation?

One thing I have learned in life is that people in dire straits often didn't get there because they were making correct decisions. This is America; we have people in abject poverty amid a sea of material wealth and prosperity. Something about that just doesn't seem right.

This is a great response. The one thing that changed my view from that of Glen Beck to more moderation was seeing the evacuation of New Orleans during a hurricane. We aren't born equal and never will be. Some people are smarter and others are stronger.

The real question for me is the definition of a living wage. Has anyone (politicians, economists, etc.) tried to define what is meant by a living wage?

[imanihonjin]

It is a horrible recipe for political stability to have a huge chunk of the population locked into poverty and hopelessness.



Yes, ER was saying exactly that. Good god man Thomas Paine was for a minimum wage. Please spare us all the Glenn Beck 101 bullshit.

Is Glenn Beck stealing my material? I wouldn't know I haven't listened to him for more than a decade now. You are very good at logical fallacies though. Two different types in one post. Good one champ!

[Indy Coug]

And thus we see the effects of trying to fight against Natural Selection.

[imanihonjin]

This is a great response. The one thing that changed my view from that of Glen Beck to more moderation was seeing the evacuation of New Orleans during a hurricane. We aren't born equal and never will be. Some people are smarter and others are stronger.

The real question for me is the definition of a living wage. Has anyone (politicians, economists, etc.) tried to define what is meant by a living wage?

I get what you are saying and I see that your point of view has changed through compassion for others. That is a beautiful thing. I too believe we have an obligation to help others in need....I just feel that this is a personal obligation and not one that should be forced on others. We are all given a set of tools, talents, and gifts and we should be free to use them as we see fit as long as our actions don't inflict harm on others. I wasn't owed anything by anyone simply by virtue of being born and in turn I don't owe anyone anything by virtue of them simply being alive and breathing. By my own free will and choice I believe I have an obligation to help my neighbor and I try my best to do so. However, I fail to see the good in forcing my neighbor to help me when I think I need his help or forcing my other neighbors into helping a neighbor who I deem is in need of their help.

[Uncle Ted]

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[Moliere]

I get what you are saying and I see that your point of view has changed through compassion for others. That is a beautiful thing. I too believe we have an obligation to help others in need....I just feel that this is a personal obligation and not one that should be forced on others. We are all given a set of tools, talents, and gifts and we should be free to use them as we see fit as long as our actions don't inflict harm on others. I wasn't owed anything by anyone simply by virtue of being born and in turn I don't owe anyone anything by virtue of them simply being alive and breathing. By my own free will and choice I believe I have an obligation to help my neighbor and I try my best to do so. However, I fail to see the good in forcing my neighbor to help me when I think I need his help or forcing my other neighbors into helping a neighbor who I deem is in need of their help.

My view didn't change through compassion, it changed through intellect and experience. I was trying to make the case that while we should help people, we should also understand that social classes will always exist unless we reach some literal Zionistic experience.....which won't happen anytime soon and likely won't happen anytime on earth. The best thing about America is the ability to move from the lower class to the upper class. That class mobility is available more so in this country and pretty much anywhere else. However, there are many people that just can't function in the type of capitalistic society we've created. I don't think we owe them anything but I do think it's both good policy and good for our republic to provide them the bare essentials for living (food, shelter, water, etc.) while also continuing to provide education so those that do have the ability to move up can move up.

[Omaha 680]

My view didn't change through compassion, it changed through intellect and experience. I was trying to make the case that while we should help people, we should also understand that social classes will always exist unless we reach some literal Zionistic experience.....which won't happen anytime soon and likely won't happen anytime on earth. The best thing about America is the ability to move from the lower class to the upper class. That class mobility is available more so in this country and pretty much anywhere else. However, there are many people that just can't function in the type of capitalistic society we've created. I don't think we owe them anything but I do think it's both good policy and good for our republic to provide them the bare essentials for living (food, shelter, water, etc.) while also continuing to provide education so those that do have the ability to move up can move up.

I can sympathize with this point of view, but the more I work with the poor, the closer I come to Goatnapper's point of view. It may be learned behavior, but poor people are usually poor because of their behavior and poor life skills. It is a moral obligation to help them, but you can't redistribute life skills or family support structure. The only thing the government can do is temporarily alleviate suffering. That is important, but it must be balanced with a concern of not reinforcing generational poverty by discouraging people from providing what they can for themselves. The only way to cure generational poverty is to repair the family and restore values such as responsibility and industriousness among the lower class. I don't think government is capable of that.