Fast Food Labor Strike

[imanihonjin]

Our experiences color our reactions to policy. Sociology tries to give us data so that we don't have to rely on anecdotes or generalizations about an issue. With data, policy becomes informed policy. Interpreting data isn't easy though, and stuff can be spun however we want to. I'm more sympathetic to fast food workers' plight because I worked for McDonald's for five years and Pizza Hut for six years while I was getting educated. I understand, very well, what kind of people work at those places.

There are people in this world so cripplingly unintelligent that that kind of unskilled work is about all that they're ever going to master. They don't have the reasoning skills to make sound life choices. You can't educate everyone into prosperity. The question before policymakers, really, is how do you help people who are just too dumb to get promoted into management not starve or become a burden on the State while they're trying to work for a living? Should a living wage be a right? Will inflation crush any attempts to raise the lowest level of wages? How has the minimum wage kept pace with inflation since its creation?

One thing I have learned in life is that people in dire straits often didn't get there because they were making correct decisions. This is America; we have people in abject poverty amid a sea of material wealth and prosperity. Something about that just doesn't seem right.

If you raise the unskilled laborer's pay to $15/hour then the automatic response that a fast food owner is going to have is that he can now afford more skilled labor and the unskilled laborer who was screaming that their pay was not enough, now has no job at all. Unintended consequences suck.

[Color Me Badd Fan]

I met a Russian guy on my mission in Germany who had been a Soviet engineer before the USSR dissolved. I couldn't recall if he worked in prosthetics or what, but he told me the big challenge with this kind of stuff is engineering the strength and dexterity in the same size as a human arm and hand. He said he just didn't know how it would be possible to engineer a Terminator type hand and arm that would have any strength combined with precise movement. Machines can produce plenty of power in a compact space (like a vacuum cleaner or something), but it typically only goes to one set kind of motion, kind of like the Chinese noodle slicer. When there's more than one type of movement, you have to deal with hydraulics and lubrication.

We're probably pretty close to the artificial intelligence side of things, but I imagine we're still a ways off on the mechanical side.

[Uncle Ted]

Our experiences color our reactions to policy. Sociology tries to give us data so that we don't have to rely on anecdotes or generalizations about an issue. With data, policy becomes informed policy. Interpreting data isn't easy though, and stuff can be spun however we want to. I'm more sympathetic to fast food workers' plight because I worked for McDonald's for five years and Pizza Hut for six years while I was getting educated. I understand, very well, what kind of people work at those places.

Fast food workers would be smart to acquire a skill as well. I suggest they think about becoming robot technicians.

[wuapinmon]

See page 2: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R42973.pdf

Minimum wage will never go away, so the "market purists" can just drop the nonsense about free markets and paying what the market will bear for unskilled labor. Since Congress will continue to increase minimum wages in the future the least we can do is index minimum wages and allow annual adjustments rather than the current practice of doing it every 5 to 10 years and shocking the system that can't sufficiently anticipate the timing and magnitude of the changes.

Good stuff in there. If we look at the data since 1980, the longest gaps between increases coincided with Republican presidencies, which is unsurprising. I think that annual adjustments would be problematic from an employer perspective. Let's say you've got an employee who has worked for you for a few years, is very reliable, hard-working, ideal. If the wage increases every year, that creates problems with merit raises. There could be a simple fix for that, "Your raise is 20¢ per hour above whatever the federal minimum wage is," but I could still see business owners discussing how payroll systems and bookkeeping expenses would rise from this.

Regardless of the timing, some sort of indexing is the least we can do. At the very least, it would avoid these constant partisan battles over something that really does need attention at least once per Congress.

[Uncle Ted]

If you raise the unskilled laborer's pay to $15/hour then the automatic response that a fast food owner is going to have is that he can now afford more skilled labor and the unskilled laborer who was screaming that their pay was not enough, now has no job at all. Unintended consequences suck.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/rai...ews-2013-02-22

[Uncle Ted]

I met a Russian guy on my mission in Germany who had been a Soviet engineer before the USSR dissolved. I couldn't recall if he worked in prosthetics or what, but he told me the big challenge with this kind of stuff is engineering the strength and dexterity in the same size as a human arm and hand. He said he just didn't know how it would be possible to engineer a Terminator type hand and arm that would have any strength combined with precise movement. Machines can produce plenty of power in a compact space (like a vacuum cleaner or something), but it typically only goes to one set kind of motion, kind of like the Chinese noodle slicer. When there's more than one type of movement, you have to deal with hydraulics and lubrication.

We're probably pretty close to the artificial intelligence side of things, but I imagine we're still a ways off on the mechanical side.

http://www.ted.com/talks/andrew_mcaf..._our_jobs.html

[Sizzle]

Our experiences color our reactions to policy. Sociology tries to give us data so that we don't have to rely on anecdotes or generalizations about an issue. With data, policy becomes informed policy. Interpreting data isn't easy though, and stuff can be spun however we want to. I'm more sympathetic to fast food workers' plight because I worked for McDonald's for five years and Pizza Hut for six years while I was getting educated. I understand, very well, what kind of people work at those places.

Sadly, I think just about anyone who has eaten at one of those places understands exactly what/who you're talking about.

There are people in this world so cripplingly unintelligent that that kind of unskilled work is about all that they're ever going to master. They don't have the reasoning skills to make sound life choices. You can't educate everyone into prosperity....This is America; we have people in abject poverty amid a sea of material wealth and prosperity. Something about that just doesn't seem right.

I don't entirely disagree with your premise that there absolutely are people who flipping burgers is as high as they'll achieve. I get that not everyone can become a doctor or a lawyer or an engineer or a professor. At the same time, I know how much things like cable TV, cell phones, cigarettes, alcohol, etc. cost. In every life, you're going to have to make tough decisions. Maybe that means moving to a place with a lower cost of living. Maybe that means living in an apartment where you don't have your own room, or you're sleeping on a couch. Maybe that means picking up a second job. It probably means a combination of the above.

I fully recognize that this is a gross oversimplification of most scenarios, but so is thinking that by raising minimum wage to $15 an hour is going to fix the problem of underemployment.

[Eddie]

This. The reason I make more in an hour than you (not Indy, but minimum wage FF worker) do all shift is I have acquired skills and knowledge that provide greater value than flipping a burger.

At $7.50 an hour, if argue they're probably already overpaid.

I think that the schools do our children a huge disservice when it comes to talking about work. They keep telling the kids over and over again, beating into their heads, that they should find a job that they love. To be honest, I don't disagree in the long-term. But short-term, sometimes they just need to have a job.

I have a daughter who was extremely picky about where she might work - because she didn't "love" the idea of any of the jobs. She's now working p/t while going to school, but it took some talking for her to understand a few basic concepts. I now have a son who wants to get paid - and we're starting to have these same conversations.

Essentially I tell him - there are 2 reasons that people pay you to do a job. 1 - they pay you to do something that they don't want to do for themselves. 2 - they pay you to do something that they cannot do for themselves. Usually #2 means that you have some form of skill or knowledge that they lack.

So - if you're a kid in Jr. High or High school - chances are that the skills and knowledge you possess that someone would pay you to use for their benefit is pretty narrow in scope. And it is pretty rare that youth get paid for #2. So, if you want to get paid - you're going to have to find a job doing something that someone else doesn't want to do for themselves, and which you don't mind doing for them for the amount they are willing to pay you.

Normally we have to have this conversation more than once before they start to get it.

[Eddie]

Oops...double clutch.

[SCcoug]

I met a Russian guy on my mission in Germany who had been a Soviet engineer before the USSR dissolved. I couldn't recall if he worked in prosthetics or what, but he told me the big challenge with this kind of stuff is engineering the strength and dexterity in the same size as a human arm and hand. He said he just didn't know how it would be possible to engineer a Terminator type hand and arm that would have any strength combined with precise movement. Machines can produce plenty of power in a compact space (like a vacuum cleaner or something), but it typically only goes to one set kind of motion, kind of like the Chinese noodle slicer. When there's more than one type of movement, you have to deal with hydraulics and lubrication.

We're probably pretty close to the artificial intelligence side of things, but I imagine we're still a ways off on the mechanical side.

A fast food robot doesn't have to be a full on humanoid robot. It just has to do some specific repetitive tasks. I'd imagine that robots would take over some specific jobs at first then as they become more general purpose begin to move into other tasks.

Here is a general purpose manufacturing robot.

[SCcoug]

A dude with a prosthetic hand.

[SCcoug]

Darpa is always up to cool things.

[The_Douger]

Our experiences color our reactions to policy. Sociology tries to give us data so that we don't have to rely on anecdotes or generalizations about an issue. With data, policy becomes informed policy. Interpreting data isn't easy though, and stuff can be spun however we want to. I'm more sympathetic to fast food workers' plight because I worked for McDonald's for five years and Pizza Hut for six years while I was getting educated. I understand, very well, what kind of people work at those places.

There are people in this world so cripplingly unintelligent that that kind of unskilled work is about all that they're ever going to master. They don't have the reasoning skills to make sound life choices. You can't educate everyone into prosperity. The question before policymakers, really, is how do you help people who are just too dumb to get promoted into management not starve or become a burden on the State while they're trying to work for a living? Should a living wage be a right? Will inflation crush any attempts to raise the lowest level of wages? How has the minimum wage kept pace with inflation since its creation?

One thing I have learned in life is that people in dire straits often didn't get there because they were making correct decisions. This is America; we have people in abject poverty amid a sea of material wealth and prosperity. Something about that just doesn't seem right.

I've mentioned I delivered pizza when I was in school. Doing that made me want to get more training/schooling so I could make more and be a more integral part of the process. I just don't get how you make a liveable wage for everyone without completely turning the economy upside down. The biggest problem I see is that we're not competing on an even playing field with countries like Mexico and China who manufacture lots of the things we buy. It's not the 60s. The days of people getting on the auto manufacturing line out of high school and gravy training that for forty years to a big pension and nice retirement are over and I don't see it ever recovering.

I'm doubtful the minimum wage has kept pace with inflation. However, I'm also doubtful that giving some of the people you speak of, the people who are too dumb or cripplingly unintelligent, more money to manage is going to result in a better outcome.

[The_Douger]

I think that the schools do our children a huge disservice when it comes to talking about work. They keep telling the kids over and over again, beating into their heads, that they should find a job that they love. To be honest, I don't disagree in the long-term. But short-term, sometimes they just need to have a job.

I have a daughter who was extremely picky about where she might work - because she didn't "love" the idea of any of the jobs. She's now working p/t while going to school, but it took some talking for her to understand a few basic concepts. I now have a son who wants to get paid - and we're starting to have these same conversations.

Essentially I tell him - there are 2 reasons that people pay you to do a job. 1 - they pay you to do something that they don't want to do for themselves. 2 - they pay you to do something that they cannot do for themselves. Usually #2 means that you have some form of skill or knowledge that they lack.

So - if you're a kid in Jr. High or High school - chances are that the skills and knowledge you possess that someone would pay you to use for their benefit is pretty narrow in scope. And it is pretty rare that youth get paid for #2. So, if you want to get paid - you're going to have to find a job doing something that someone else doesn't want to do for themselves, and which you don't mind doing for them for the amount they are willing to pay you.

Normally we have to have this conversation more than once before they start to get it.

I agree with all this. That's why I spent a large portion of my summers cutting lawns, because people didn't want to do the 1-2 hours of work and I was willing to take the 15 bucks to do it.

I just think the idea that you're going to love every minute of your job is kind of silly. My son was telling me he wants to find something he really likes to do when he grows up. I like my job. I don't love it. I don't think about it when I'm not at work. And I'm glad about that. I am sure there are people who love every minute of their job, but I'm not that guy. I like the feeling that sometimes I'm making a difference to someone, but ultimately I just want to go fishing or play with my kids or watch a game on TV or at the stadium. those are the things I love to do. Work doesn't come close to that stuff for me.

[ERCougar]

In the next fifty or so years, I think there will be not a few who will be automated out of their jobs. I'm curious what thoughts will be about a living wage then.