The Fiscal Cliff

[Shaka]

Do me a favor and ask them the same question I just asked you... i.e.

If their products are as damn good as they claim then why don't they just sell their products at Walmart like everyone else rather than using the Orrin Hatch supported ponzi scheme? Every MLM'er I have asked this question can't give me a straight answer to it.

The guy addressed this in his CB post. Some of the better product driven MLM's prefer the business model for marketing reasons. Of course these companies place more emphasis on product purchases rather than growing a downline.

[Shaka]

It is far beyond shameless... Orrin is lining his family's pockets and most likely his own pockets with it.

I assume your referring to his lawyer/lobbyist son Scott. Scott's a good guy and you really can't begrudge him for having supplement companies among his client list. As for whether or not this gives Scott an advantage I can only tell you that if Orrin wasn't already in the supplement camp he'd have no trouble refusing Scott's overtures.

Orrin has definitely made money from the supplement industry but as far as I know he has done nothing that could be considered against the law or unethical.

[Jeff Lebowski]

I assume your referring to his lawyer/lobbyist son Scott. Scott's a good guy and you really can't begrudge him for having supplement companies among his client list. As for whether or not this gives Scott an advantage I can only tell you that if Orrin wasn't already in the supplement camp he'd have no trouble refusing Scott's overtures.

Orrin has definitely made money from the supplement industry but as far as I know he has done nothing that could be considered against the law or unethical.

That's quite a post. I can't decide whether to go with the rolling eyes smiley or the blinking eyes smiley.

[Shaka]

That's quite a post. I can't decide whether to go with the rolling eyes smiley or the blinking eyes smiley.

Let's put it this way. I know the family very well. Orrin is a good guy and so Scott. Both have to play in the mud hole that is politics which could give a tarnished appearance to almost anyone. At their core they are both honest and ethical men.


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[byu71]

Let's put it this way. I know the family very well. Orrin is a good guy and so Scott. Both have to play in the mud hole that is politics which could give a tarnished appearance to almost anyone. At their core they are both honest and ethical men.


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I agree. The attacks on Hatch are silly, IMHO. I don't know who has had as much clout back in Washington that can help Utah as Hatch. Maybe there has been someone, but I don't know who.

I sometimes wonder if there aren't people on this board that would like to see a Jim Matheson as the Senator from Utah. That would sure be great. Another Reid backer.

[Uncle Ted]

The guy addressed this in his CB post. Some of the better product driven MLM's prefer the business model for marketing reasons. Of course these companies place more emphasis on product purchases rather than growing a downline.

"Marketing reasons"... that is a bunch of bullshit. If the product is good as they say it is then it will sell itself.

[Shaka]

"Marketing reasons"... that is a bunch of bullshit. If the product is good as they say it is then it will sell itself.

How is that bullshit? Not everyone has to place their product in a brick and mortar establishment to be legit. I pointed out earlier that some MLM's are more product driven. In these cases it's more of a direct marketing strategy similar to what Avon does. I know people who have small downlines but have a decent home based business selling NuSkin to a clientele they've spent years building. I see nothing wrong with this as NuSkin makes some very good products.

I think you're painting with a rather large brush.

[Uncle Ted]

How is that bullshit? Not everyone has to place their product in a brick and mortar establishment to be legit. I pointed out earlier that some MLM's are more product driven. In these cases it's more of a direct marketing strategy similar to what Avon does. I know people who have small downlines but have a decent home based business selling NuSkin to a clientele they've spent years building. I see nothing wrong with this as NuSkin makes some very good products.

I think you're painting with a rather large brush.

In general, that is not the case:

Several sources have commented on the income level of specific MLMs or MLMs in general:

• The Times: "The Government investigation claims to have revealed that just 10% of Amway's agents in Britain make any profit, with less than one in ten selling a single item of the group's products."^[27]
• Scheibeler, a high level "Emerald" Amway member: "UK Justice Norris found in 2008 that out of an IBO [Independent Business Owners] population of 33,000, 'only about 90 made sufficient incomes to cover the costs of actively building their business.' That's a 99.7 percent loss rate for investors."^[28]
• Newsweek: based on Mona Vie's own 2007 income disclosure statement "fewer than 1 percent qualified for commissions and of those, only 10 percent made more than $100 a week."^[29]
• Business Students Focus on Ethics: "In the USA, the average annual income from MLM for 90% MLM members is no more than US $5,000, which is far from being a sufficient means of making a living (San Lian Life Weekly 1998)"^[30]
• USA Today has had several articles:

• "While earning potential varies by company and sales ability, DSA says the median annual income for those in direct sales is $2,400."^[31]
• In an October 15, 2010 article, it was stated that documents of a MLM called Fortune reveal that 30 percent of its representatives make no money and that 54 percent of the remaining 70 percent only make $93 a month. The article also states Fortune is under investigation by the Attorneys General of Texas, Kentucky, North Dakota, and North Carolina with Missouri, South Carolina, Illinois, and Florida following up complaints against the company.^[32]
• A February 10, 2011 article stated "It can be very difficult, if not impossible, for most individuals to make a lot of money through the direct sale of products to consumers. And big money is what recruiters often allude to in their pitches." ^[33]
• "Roland Whitsell, a former business professor who spent 40 years researching and teaching the pitfalls of multilevel marketing": "You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone making over $1.50 an hour, (t)he primary product is opportunity. The strongest, most powerful motivational force today is false hope."^[33]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-level_marketing

Lots of clueless people put in lots of time and effort and get nothing in return. MLM's prey on the clueless and the poor by giving them a largely false hope that they can make lots of money.

[byu71]

In general, that is not the case:


Lots of clueless people put in lots of time and effort and get nothing in return. MLM's prey on the clueless and the poor by giving them a largely false hope that they can make lots of money.

Do you think it is reality or perception that on a per capita basis, more LDS folks get involved in MLM's and any other sub group?

Do you think that might be because we honor the clueless and poor?

[venkman]

I can't stand Orrin Hatch. I wish folks around here would quit re-electing him. We have some of the most embarrassing people in Washington from Utah right now.

He was Mr. Team Party in 2012. Now? <crickets>

[Uncle Ted]

Do you think it is reality or perception that on a per capita basis, more LDS folks get involved in MLM's and any other sub group?

Do you think that might be because we honor the clueless and poor?

It is interesting how LDS folks are largely on the top of these MLM pyramids or where they make a good deal of money. The clueless and poor and the ones effectively working for less than $1.50/hr (as mentioned above in the research). So how does one recruit and convince the clueless and poor to work so hard for so little money on the hope or "faith" that they might get rich? It seems to me that many LDS folks got trained to do this spending 18 months to two years of their lives doing the same sort of thing but with faith or hope in a different product.

[byu71]

It is interesting how LDS folks are largely on the top of these MLM pyramids or where they make a good deal of money. The clueless and poor and the ones effectively working for less than $1.50/hr (as mentioned above in the research). So how does one recruit and convince the clueless and poor to work so hard for so little money on the hope or "faith" that they might get rich? It seems to me that many LDS folks got trained to do this spending 18 months to two years of their lives do the same sort of thing but with faith or hope in a different product.

I think part of it is "we deserve to be a blessed people because of the way we live". Riches received from paying tithing isn't always thought of in the proper way.

[Shaka]

In general, that is not the case:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-level_marketing

Lots of clueless people put in lots of time and effort and get nothing in return. MLM's prey on the clueless and the poor by giving them a largely false hope that they can make lots of money.

I didn't say it applied to all or even a majority. I'm with you Ted, I dislike MLM's. However I'm open to the possibility that some are better than others. With that said it's a perfectly legal business model.

MLM's benefit from what Orrin does for the entire supplement industry. I work at a company that is regulated and subject to regular audits by the FDA. Those audits create a lot of needless headaches. Frankly I do not have much of a problem if supplements aren't regulated as much as narcotics or other prescription medication.

[Jacob]

I can't stand Orrin Hatch. I wish folks around here would quit re-electing him. We have some of the most embarrassing people in Washington from Utah right now.

No. We can't risk another Mike Lee being elected to the senate. Better to have corporate interest sell-outs than senators who cause a stink about too much spending.

[il Padrino Ute]

In 1976, Orrin Hatch pointed out that his opponent, the incumbent Frank Moss, had been in office for 18 years and because of those 3 terms, Moss was an establishment politician and therefore, a part of the problem in Washington DC.

That was 36 years ago.

Hatch deserves all the treatment he is getting.