The Fiscal Cliff

[statman]

Where was the outrage last week when the Obama Adminstration admitted that it had simply ignored the legal debt ceiling to the tune of more than $1000 for every man woman and child in the country ($360 billion jump in the debt from one day to the next). If a republican had done that the media would be screaming it from the rooftops. As it was, it was an 'oh by the way' on news outlets fixated on the clusterfuck.gov debacle.

[UVACoug]

Yes and no. He avoided (purposefully so) the primary he knew he would lose, and likely lose badly. That is why those Tea Party groups hijacked the Convention process. The close primary is further proof of what a weak candidate he was (but he certainly had the tea party astroturf funding). That weakness has been more than apparent in DC, where he has been a real embarrassment and is considered a joke.

The changes are necessary, particularly these days. Leavitt came in second in the Convention the first time (almost third), with very radical conservatives finishing ahead of him. I was there, working for Leavitt at the time. It was amazing what the convention process was doing, even back then. It was fascinating to watch the caucus process happen and how unrepresentative it often was. Then in the primary, he smoked Eyre. Which was where the majority of Utahns were at.

In today's campaign financial environment, with all those "astroturf" orgs out there it is so much easier to steal a convention. No way Leavitt gets out of Convention in today's environment even though he would easily win a primary. Another absurd case in point - Jason Chaffetz. He has no business being a US Congressman. The Convention process in Utah and the power of the extremes has also skewed even the moderate folks (like Hatch) far away their positions and what the majority of Utah wants.

Usually is it those on the fringes (extremes) that are the "low information voters." I wonder if they understand the irony of using a term like that, as they often do.

How did Chaffetz benefit from the caucus system ... and what qualifications is he lacking that makes it so that he "has no business" being a Congressman? I don't always like the guys politics or tactics, but I didn't realize there was a set of qualifications that had to be met beyond citizenship and age.

[UVACoug]

Except greater participation is exactly what you are calling for. Unless I just don't understand it, the Count My Vote system tries to fix the problem simply by getting greater participation, largely of low information voters in a typical primary. The primary system and the general election system are malfunctioning due to lazy voters. Always have and always will. I don't see away around that. But I also don't see a good case for including even more lazy voters in the initial process.

The funny thing is that many of the radicals that dominate the caucus have less "information" (i.e., knowledge) than the average voter who doesn't have time to bother with the circus. Most of those that I have talked to have no idea what the hell they are talking about. They just repeat talking points that are fed to them by someone else.

[UVACoug]

I didn't say that. But if that's what you got out of what I wrote, maybe you are. I didn't say everybody who doesn't caucus is a low-information voter. But most people who vote in primaries (and even more-so in general elections) are low-information voters. That's a fact, my friend. Oh, and they are irrational too. But I'm sure most caucus participants are too.




It wasn't a logical argument. I just said it was amusing. But whatever.

All election processes are flawed, and as I've described, I think the primary system is even more flawed for the reasons stated.

And apparently you think the general election is even more flawed. Who needs democracy? Lets just let a panel of "high information" voters decide who gets to govern. That sounds like a great idea. I think that's called an oligarchy, isn't it?

[UVACoug]

This long article in the WSJ about a likely establishment challenge to Lee tends to make me think better, rather than worse of Mike Lee. Some highlights:


This is a big-time fundraiser. It' s "business leaders" and party establishment who want Lee out. Not surprising. Rather than being a "show horse" Lee keeps a fairly low profile compared to guys like Cruz, Rubio, McCain, Graham, Rand Paul. He is clearly not trying to be a spectacle or a show horse despite Mr. Zwick wanting to make him so. But why do "business leaders" (read special interests) not like Lee? Perhaps because he pays them no attention.

I can't get the whole article now, but read it last night. In it, some Utah REpub big wig and fundraiser says:

Ha! I'm not sure there could be a higher compliment paid to a senator than that he doesn't even acknowledge party fundraisers.

And Mr. "No Labels" John Huntsman has no problems with name-calling


I don't believe you'll find many instance of Mr. Lee making ad hominem attacks against his fellow republicans, or democrats. I'd say in that regard he is more distinguished than Mr. McCain or Mr. Huntsman, or most senators.

Does Lee vote as he does because he wants ro raise money and be re-elected as these fools claim? Clearly not, in my view.

And what about the tax proposal Lee came out with a few weeks ago? Best plan I've seen in a long time. http://www.lee.senate.gov/public/ind...3-d495c97f698e
Now, Lee is not much of a public speaker, IMO. He is fairly boring and lacks charisma. No wonder he doesn't try to be a "show horse"! But he is clearly intelligent and clearly standing for something. Something that most of us actually agree with.

Harry Reid said something funny a few weeks ago. That Cruz likes to talk down to people and that he thinks he's smarter than his audience, but now he is in the senate, and everybody there is equally as smart. Well, if that don't make you lol...

It's the majority of Utahns that want him out. Have you not seen the polls? I didn't realize that elitist special business interests made up a majority of Utah voters.

This is exactly what I am referring to when I say that the caucus is dominated by low information voters. You have no clue what you are talking about, yet you keep spouting talking points that have no basis in reality.


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[UVACoug]

No, there are laws against bootlegging. And having the fans on your side is a good thing.

Who do you think makes the laws? And who do you think changes the laws when they aren't effective?

[Uncle Ted]

Who do you think makes the laws? And who do you think changes the laws when they aren't effective?

Putting "bombs" in people's computers wouldn't be effective. Only a fool like Hatch would suggest such an idea.

[Uncle Ted]

Another example... Orrin Hatch is the supplement industry's lap dog:

A drive along mountain-lined Interstate 15 here shows why Senator Orrin G. Hatch is considered a hero in this region nicknamed the Silicon Valley of the nutritional supplement industry.

In the town of Lehi is the sprawling headquarters of Xango, where company officials praised Mr. Hatch, a Utah Republican, late last year for helping their exotic fruit juice business “operate without excessive intrusion” from Washington.


Up in Sandy, Utah, is 4 Life Research, whose top executives donated to Mr. Hatch’s last re-election campaign after federal regulators charged the company with making exaggerated claims about pills that it says helps the immune system. And nearby in West Salem, assembly-line workers at Neways fill thousands of bottles a day for a product line that includes Youthinol, a steroid-based hormone that professional sports leagues pushed to ban until Mr. Hatch blocked them.


“Senator Hatch — he’s our natural ally,” said Marc S. Ullman, a lawyer for several supplement companies.


Mr. Hatch, who credits a daily regimen of nutritional supplements for his vigor at 77, has spent his career in Washington helping the $25-billion-a-year industry thrive.


He was the chief author of a federal law enacted 17 years ago that allows companies to make general health claims about their products, but exempts them from federal reviews of their safety or effectiveness before they go to market. During the Obama administration, Mr. Hatch has repeatedly intervened with his colleagues in Congress and federal regulators in Washington to fight proposed rules that industry officials consider objectionable.


While Congress is often stalled or bitterly divided in addressing some of the nation’s most pressing problems, like the economy and immigration, legislative champions like Mr. Hatch are often remarkably successful in delivering for niche industries or parochial programs. It is not unusual, of course, for lawmakers to fight for local interests, but Mr. Hatch’s alliances are particularly strong and mutually beneficial.


Mr. Hatch has been rewarded with hundreds of thousands of dollars in campaign contributions, political loyalty and corporate sponsorship of his favorite causes back home.

His family and friends have benefited, too, from links to the supplement industry. His son Scott Hatch, is a longtime industry lobbyist in Washington, as are at least five of the senator’s former aides. Mr. Hatch’s grandson and son-in-law increase revenue at their chiropractic clinic near here by selling herbal and nutritional treatments, including $35 “thyroid dysfunction” injections and a weight-loss product, “Slim and Sassy Metabolic Blend.” And Mr. Hatch’s former law partner owns Pharmics, a small nutritional supplement company in Salt Lake City.


But many public health experts argue that in his advocacy, Mr. Hatch has hindered regulators from preventing dangerous products from being put on the market, including supplements that are illegally spiked with steroids or other unapproved drugs. They also say he is the person in Washington most responsible for the proliferation of products that make exaggerated claims about health benefits.


Just in the last two years, 2,292 serious illnesses, including 33 that were fatal, were reported by consumers of supposedly harmless nutritional supplements, federal records show. (These “severe adverse reaction” reports do not necessarily mean the supplements caused the illnesses, just that the consumers became ill after taking them.) And some of Mr. Hatch’s most important supporters in Utah have faced repeated accusations of falsely claiming their products can treat almost everything, including cancer and heart disease.
[...]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/21/us...atch.html?_r=0

[Shaka]

Another example... Orrin Hatch is the supplement industry's lap dog:


http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/21/us...atch.html?_r=0

To be fair Orrin has been into that stuff before the industry took off. He was juicing (not the steroid juicing) long before it became a fad. While I'm not a big fan of the MLM's or most of their products he is at least consistent. To be honest I don't have much of a problem with him watching out for the supplement industry considering the number of them that are Utah based.

[Uncle Ted]

To be fair Orrin has been into that stuff before the industry took off. He was juicing (not the steroid juicing) long before it became a fad. While I'm not a big fan of the MLM's or most of their products he is at least consistent. To be honest I don't have much of a problem with him watching out for the supplement industry considering the number of them that are Utah based.

If the shit that these MLMs is so good then why don't they just sell it using normal channels rather using their ponzi schemes? Orrin Hatch is the whole reason these companies are still around. Maybe he is a tool.

Edit: So given that you don't have "much of a problem" with Orrin watching out for the supplement industry I guess you don't have a problem with these the serious illnesses and fatalities that these companies' products cause and the claims they make...

Just in the last two years, 2,292 serious illnesses, including 33 that were fatal, were reported by consumers of supposedly harmless nutritional supplements, federal records show. (These “severe adverse reaction” reports do not necessarily mean the supplements caused the illnesses, just that the consumers became ill after taking them.) And some of Mr. Hatch’s most important supporters in Utah have faced repeated accusations of falsely claiming their products can treat almost everything, including cancer and heart disease.

[Shaka]

If the shit that these MLMs is so good then why don't they just sell it using normal channels rather using their ponzi schemes? Orrin Hatch is the whole reason these companies are still around. He is a tool.

Not all of it is shit. A lot of it is but not all.

Amazingly this guy on CB does a pretty good breakdown of the MLM business and marketing models. For the record I don't care for MLM's although I have been known to use some of the better products.

One of the quirks of living in Utah is you are bound to know people that work on the corporate side of the industry. A friend from my hockey playing days started a very successful juice-based MLM that sponsors a pro soccer team. Two of my very good friends are PR directors at other companies.

[Uncle Ted]

Not all of it is shit. A lot of it is but not all.

Amazingly this guy on CB does a pretty good breakdown of the MLM business and marketing models. For the record I don't care for MLM's although I have been known to use some of the better products.

One of the quirks of living in Utah is you are bound to know people that work on the corporate side of the industry. A friend from my hockey playing days started a very successful juice-based MLM that sponsors a pro soccer team. Two of my very good friends are PR directors at other companies.

Do me a favor and ask them the same question I just asked you... i.e.

If their products are as damn good as they claim then why don't they just sell their products at Walmart like everyone else rather than using the Orrin Hatch supported ponzi scheme? Every MLM'er I have asked this question can't give me a straight answer to it.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Ted is right. Orrin Hatch selling out to the quack and pyramid scheme industries is shameless.

[Uncle Ted]

Ted is right. Orrin Hatch selling out to the quack and pyramid scheme industries is shameless.

It is far beyond shameless... Orrin is lining his family's pockets and most likely his own pockets with it.

[The_Douger]

I can't stand Orrin Hatch. I wish folks around here would quit re-electing him. We have some of the most embarrassing people in Washington from Utah right now.