The Fiscal Cliff

[The_Douger]

Douger, I like you but these generalizations are not helpful. I've seen some studies that show poor people are more likely to give than wealthy people.

I'm just going by several things I've read over the years.

I've also seen some studies saying what you are saying about poor people.

I just need to see some cuts to government programs if we're going to raise taxes on the rich. It's a pittance that hardly even puts a dent in what we're alcking. I worry for my children and their children. I just find it unsustainable.

I do not trust the government to apply these programs appropriately. They have been wasting time forever ont his.

[frank ryan]

This is one of the fundamental differences between the two parties. Republicans like to leave it up to individuals to take care of others through charity, and Democrats want to have a hand in doling it out fairly.

Taken to the extreme it doesn't work when left up to individuals alone. Having a social safety net is pragmatic for everyone on some level.

[Bo Diddley]

Taken to the extreme it doesn't work when left up to individuals alone. Having a social safety net is pragmatic for everyone on some level.

Agreed. So where do we draw the line? It's obviously moving to the left right now. The discussion on where it should be is healthy.

[byu71]

If you read the actual bill, it looks like they're phasing out all itemized deductions and personal exemptions above $300,000 for married people, $275,000 for heads of households and $250,000 for single people.

That is a huge item. If that is the case, then the reporting on this is totally piss poor. When discussing the bill I have heard cap on deductions only a couple of time. CNN just mentioned it and called it a cap, but nothing about what the cap is. Perhaps this is another one of those "we will find out what is in the bill after we pass it".

Lastly, I don't see anything about what I consider along with my democrat friends one of the biggest tax give aways of them all. Capital gains treatment for "carried interest". Tax on that should go from 15% to 40%, not 20%. The dem leaders demeanonize this, rightly so, all the time. Like the republicans though, they are also in these folks pocket. They can take a two year leave from public life, join one of these hedge funds, make their millions or should I say be given millions and then come back to public life and demonize the very group that handed them the money.

When speaking of hedge funds, I should have said some when it comes to manipulating politicians.

[frank ryan]

Agreed. So where do we draw the line? It's obviously moving to the left right now. The discussion on where it should be is healthy.

There clearly has to be some component of austerity. I agree with conservatives that governments don't spend efficiently. I gotta suspect there has to be a ton of absolutely useless pork out there that can be cut-for starters

[frank ryan]

I'm just going by several things I've read over the years.

I've also seen some studies saying what you are saying about poor people.

I just need to see some cuts to government programs if we're going to raise taxes on the rich. It's a pittance that hardly even puts a dent in what we're alcking. I worry for my children and their children. I just find it unsustainable.

I do not trust the government to apply these programs appropriately. They have been wasting time forever ont his.

Certainly socialized healthcare or public healthcare including Medicaid and the VA has saved a lot of lives. The government can't and shouldn't try to be a business but some things have to be carried out by it.
Social programs aren't going away. People can squeal class warfare but the past election shows us that the votary isn't on board with completely gutting these programs.

[byu71]

There clearly has to be some component of austerity. I agree with conservatives that governments don't spend efficiently. I gotta suspect there has to be a ton of absolutely useless pork out there that can be cut-for starters

What is truly sad is that two "little shots" like you and I could sit down over a a few days and come up with something. Sure there would be howling on our agreement, but that would mean it was probably a good deal.

The difference is you and I wouldn't give a crap about our political aspirations and vision of how we could make the country move in our own vision of how things should be.

[Moliere]

If the deal didn't touch SS or Medicare then it's basically useless. We are no better off today than we were yesterday.

[frank ryan]

What is truly sad is that two "little shots" like you and I could sit down over a a few days and come up with something. Sure there would be howling on our agreement, but that would mean it was probably a good deal.

The difference is you and I wouldn't give a crap about our political aspirations and vision of how we could make the country move in our own vision of how things should be.

Despite ideological cross-over I never felt so little loyalty to the Democratic party. Working as a peon bureaucrat showed me that there is so much waste. In my experience there are way too many administrators and bosses. I could save the state some money by pinpointing 10 people making over six figures who produce nothing except flimsy rationalizations for their jobs.

[Bo Diddley]

Despite ideological cross-over I never felt so little loyalty to the Democratic party. Working as a peon bureaucrat showed me that there is so much waste. In my experience there are way too many administrators and bosses. I could save the state some money by pinpointing 10 people making over six figures who produce nothing except flimsy rationalizations for their jobs.

I think we have a winner here.

[byu71]

If the deal didn't touch SS or Medicare then it's basically useless. We are no better off today than we were yesterday.

Sadly I feel compelled to watch this thing. AFter taking a couple of granddaughters to a party my buddy throws that is great for kids and I guess adults, I watched coverage from 12:30 to 3 and again this morning from 9 on.
I have to have answers tomorrow and have actual had three calls here at home today.

I can't say I am learning much. This deduction cap has me bugged. How can such a big item not be clear??

I vascillate. The market will be better tomorrow if the repubs vote yes. However, I worry about the next few weeks when investors figure out what really happened. This is truly like Greece, Italy, Spain, etc. WE are on, no we are off, now a deal, no the deal sucks, a new fix, no not really a fix.

I saw CNN interview some college students about this. No offense to students, but what the hell do they know about anyting (generalization)
One student said congress looks inept, but it is mainly the republicans who are "the party of no"

I would have asked her. Did your parents give you a credit card? When you hit the limit do you just call home and get it raised? If they said no, would your parents be the "parents of no"?

[frank ryan]

Sadly I feel compelled to watch this thing. AFter taking a couple of granddaughters to a party my buddy throws that is great for kids and I guess adults, I watched coverage from 12:30 to 3 and again this morning from 9 on.
I have to have answers tomorrow and have actual had three calls here at home today.

I can't say I am learning much. This deduction cap has me bugged. How can such a big item not be clear??

I vascillate. The market will be better tomorrow if the repubs vote yes. However, I worry about the next few weeks when investors figure out what really happened. This is truly like Greece, Italy, Spain, etc. WE are on, no we are off, now a deal, no the deal sucks, a new fix, no not really a fix.

I saw CNN interview some college students about this. No offense to students, but what the hell do they know about anyting (generalization)
One student said congress looks inept, but it is mainly the republicans who are "the party of no"

I would have asked her. Did your parents give you a credit card? When you hit the limit do you just call home and get it raised? If they said no, would your parents be the "parents of no"?

If the GOP in the House votes no, this will hurt them big time. For a party on life support they can't afford to be perceived as uncompromising.

[doctorcoug]

If the GOP in the House votes no, this will hurt them big time. For a party on life support they can't afford to be perceived as uncompromising.

Not certain I agree with this. Rushing unto decisions is stupid, see the medical device tax for a good argument.

via a galaxy s3 far far away

[Bo Diddley]

I can't say I am learning much. This deduction cap has me bugged. How can such a big item not be clear??

Download the .pdf file and read it. It's pretty clear what the Senate has signed. What's unclear, is if the House will go with that or modify it. Right now it looks like the House will amend it. Negotiations are still ongoing, so I seriously doubt we're looking at an end product.

I vascillate. The market will be better tomorrow if the repubs vote yes. However, I worry about the next few weeks when investors figure out what really happened. This is truly like Greece, Italy, Spain, etc. WE are on, no we are off, now a deal, no the deal sucks, a new fix, no not really a fix.

And don't kid yourself, we're in for a roller coaster over the next few months. Keep in mind that Sequestration is getting put off for only a couple of months, the Debt Ceiling will be reached in the next two to three months, and the Federal Budget still needs to be passed for FY13. The continuing resolution takes us through March 27th if I'm not mistaken.

[frank ryan]

Not certain I agree with this. Rushing unto decisions is stupid, see the medical device tax for a good argument.

via a galaxy s3 far far away

The average voter has no clue about the medical device tax.