Trayvon Martin

[DU Ute]

More news is out and my bafflement abides.

1. The facts of the case (grass on the back of Zimmerman's shirt and blood on his head and face) support his claim that he was attacked

2. New reports suggest that the cries for help were in Zimmerman's voice, not Trayvon's

3. An eyewitness reports that the guy in blue (Trayvon) was on top of the guy in red (Zimmerman) and was striking him

None of this means that Zimmerman isn't an idiot, shouldn't be charged with something and isn't guilty of a horrible crime - it does mean that there's a lot of bullshit rushing to judgment and cheap politicization in the national conversation on this.

And there is still no evidence to suggest that race was a factor in this Latino-Jewish [EDIT: apparently Catholic) man shooting this African American teen.

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/new...erman-03232012

He cleans up pretty nice for someone who thought he was about to be seriously battered to the point using deadly force was reasonable.

And I still have no good answer for why this particular death is a national outrage while the teens who get murdered every other week of the year are just paragraphs in local newspapers.

There are a lot of factors that play into this. Why was Rodney King any different than all the other black men roughed up by the police? Sometimes things happen that push simmering feelings over the edge. Whether you think it's justified or not, this is becoming a national outrage. People are marching in the streets. I don't see any reason why the statements made by Pres Obama were out of line any more than Pres Bush weighing in during the whole Rodney King debacle.

[RobinFinderson]

This will continue to fascinate as the facts come out, assuming they do. Why does a short, unarmed skinny kid, with no (or so I believe) previous criminal record attack an older much bigger dude with a gun?

Here is what I have told LittleRobin about strangers following him in vehicles...

1. Get away from the vehicle. Run.

2. If a stranger gets out of the vehicle, and attempts to grab or attack you, fight back with everything you've got.

It doesn't surprise me a bit that there was an altercation arising from a stranger stalking a child.

[DU Ute]

Here is what I have told LittleRobin about strangers following him in vehicles...

1. Get away from the vehicle. Run.

2. If a stranger gets out of the vehicle, and attempts to grab or attack you, fight back with everything you've got.

It doesn't surprise me a bit that there was an altercation arising from a stranger stalking a child.

Amen. If some dude had been following me around and then confronted me I might have taken a swing at him.

[oxcoug]

He cleans up pretty nice for someone who thought he was about to be seriously battered to the point using deadly force was reasonable.



There are a lot of factors that play into this. Why was Rodney King any different than all the other black men roughed up by the police? Whether you think it's justified or not, this is becoming a national outrage. People are marching in the streets. I don't see any reason why the statements made by Pres Obama were out of line any more than Pres Bush weighing in during the whole Rodney King debacle.

I have made no attempt to defend Zimmerman or his use of force - my comments are focused on the politicized distortions of the public discourse on the incident.

I have also said nothing abt Obama's comments so I'm not sure why you're responding as if I had.

Whether you think it's justified or not, this is becoming a national outrage. People are marching in the streets.

And yes exactly my point, this is the problem - because the incident is being distorted and a fictional narrative of a helpless black boy getting offed by a vicious white guy (that WAS the public narrative pushed by the most indignant immediately after the moment) people are wasting their time and public resources over an incident that has no clearcut racial component.

Even the supposed "effing coons" comment is heard by many - including none other than John Legend - as "effing tools" - and the guy has black relatives.

And finally - do you know when that picture was taken?

[Tex]

He's the DOJ's boss, is he not?

What does that have to do with it?

EDIT: It kind of feels like we've turned this kid's death into a political football, doesn't it?

Which is my point.

[Tex]

He cleans up pretty nice for someone who thought he was about to be seriously battered to the point using deadly force was reasonable.

Now there's some persuasive evidence. Let's judge the validity of his story by his mugshot.

[Viking]

Now there's some persuasive evidence. Let's judge the validity of his story by his mugshot.

This thread is getting annoying.

[RobinFinderson]

And yes exactly my point, this is the problem - because the incident is being distorted and a fictional narrative of a helpless black boy getting offed by a vicious white guy (that WAS the public narrative pushed by the most indignant immediately after the moment) people are wasting their time and public resources over an incident that has no clearcut racial component.

The racial component, from what I have seen (including the speech from brother Sharpton), has to do with Zimmerman's racial profiling of the child as a suspicious person, seemingly under the influence of drugs and/or alcohol. I've come to the game a bit late, so I don't know what official media were talking about Zimmerman's race being anything but ancillary to the question of racial profiling.

[All-American]

What does that have to do with it?

As the person who was elected as, among other things, the head of the justice department, he is ultimately responsible for what they do or do not do. Some sort of comment is appropriate.

Which is my point.

And it's a good one. If you're saying he should have said "No comment," I disagree. If you're saying he shouldn't have said anything that might have been construed as a commentary on race, I don't entirely disagree.

[Utah ma'am am I]

It is always a tragedy when a young man is killed. But until all the facts come out, why comment one way or another? I think this should apply to everyone, be it people on a message board up to and including the President of the United States.

[Non Sequitur]

And it's a good one. If you're saying he should have said "No comment," I disagree. If you're saying he shouldn't have said anything that might have been construed as a commentary on race, I don't entirely disagree.

While I agree with almost everything you have said in this thread, I'm not sure I would go so far as to say he shouldn't comment on race. White people aren't the only ones who are entitled to speak out on race relations. It's an issue in this country, and he's the President of the country. I would hope he has some opinions on the subject.

[RobinFinderson]

While I agree with almost everything you have said in this thread, I'm not sure I would go so far as to say he shouldn't comment on race. White people aren't the only ones who are entitled to speak out on race relations. It's an issue in this country, and he's the President of the country. I would hope he has some opinions on the issue.

And besides, the only thing he said about race was that Martin looks like what Obama might imagine his own son might appear, if Obama had a son. The most clear interpretation of that statement, and the way that Obama framed the comment (as a message to the parents of the child), is one of empathetic emotional support.

[Pelado]

Why was Rodney King any different than all the other black men roughed up by the police?

Video footage?

[All-American]

While I agree with almost everything you have said in this thread, I'm not sure I would go so far as to say he shouldn't comment on race. White people aren't the only ones who are entitled to speak out on race relations. It's an issue in this country, and he's the President of the country. I would hope he has some opinions on the subject.

Hence my equivocation. I think Tex has a good point, and I think yours is a good point as well. With a good argument on either side, I'm not throwing stones at the President for commenting on an issue that is in dire need of national attention.

EDIT: on the other hand, the more the evidence suggests that Zimmerman did act in self-defense, the worse statements like this will make it to do what justice requires.

[RobinFinderson]

I'll just go ahead and point out something strange in Zimmerman's testimony. He reports to the police that the suspect is 'suspicious,' later saying something to the effect that 'they always get away.' This is the description one might give if they thought the suspect was scoping out houses to burglarize. But then he reports that the suspect seemed to be under the influence of drugs and or alcohol, which would NOT be the condition of a a serious criminal who was scoping out targets for burglary.

Obviously someone could be both drunk AND scoping out targets for burglary, but it isn't likely, and it is even less likely that the child appeared intoxicated given there was NOTHING in his system. The details support the likelihood that this was racial profiling at its worst.