Natural Born Citizens

[wuapinmon]

So, my relatives decided to get into today with me about "Mexicans."

They don't think that people born in the US to illegal immigrants deserve to be "natural-born citizens." I agree with the 14th Amendment, as well as the Court decisions like US vs. Wong Kim Ark.

So that the debate remains civil, lets be sure to elevate our dialogue above insulting anyone or any group.

What do yall think?







P.S. I know that "y'all" is supposed to contain an apostrophe. I think that after 300 years of usage, we can drop the punctuation at this point and just consider it a word in its own right.

[All-American]

Born a citizen = naturally born Citizen. No question.

[BlueHair]

Born a citizen = naturally born Citizen. No question.

I agree.

[All-American]

In fact, I'll go one further. Put the pen in my hand and give me leave to edit the constitution as I will, and that phrase is gone. If a person is so qualified to serve over the nation, and the people want that person to serve them in their hightest office, I see no reason why having been born on the other side of a line on a map should prevent it.

[Hallelujah]

Born a citizen = naturally born Citizen. No question.

I suggest we create a water slide from Mexico to California. Let's put California out of their misery. Get more 'born citizens' from illegals on the books. Now! They are helping our economy and we need their tax money.

[Hallelujah]

What does 'illegal' mean to you? Two illegals make a legal?

[TripletDaddy]

I don't even understand why it would be an issue.

Why would parental status determine your own citizenship?

If you are born in the US, you are an American.

This would be a much more interesting thread if someone could advance a few persuasive arguments outlining why someone born in the US would NOT be an American. I am more interested in hearing that.

[wuapinmon]

I don't even understand why it would be an issue.

Why would parental status determine your own citizenship?

If you are born in the US, you are an American.

This would be a much more interesting thread if someone could advance a few persuasive arguments outlining why someone born in the US would NOT be an American. I am more interested in hearing that.

With deference to the euphemism treadmill at work, I'll replace "illegal immigrants"with the current "undocumented workers" (UDW) that's preferred.

My relatives' opinion is that the "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" line in the 14th Amendment would preclude anyone who isn't a citizen from having their child born on American soil be a citizen, because, if they're a citizen of another nation, they are not under our jurisdiction....according to their reasoning.

But, anyone on US soil is under US jurisdiction, unless they are a diplomat, minister, or other official government representative of a foreign nation, and therefore they have 'diplomatic immunity' from prosecution. This opinion has been backed up by Supreme Court rulings, though the dissenting opinions, going back into the 1800's would agree with my relatives.

If I remember correctly, there was some concern in the early days that foreign powers might be able to send someone to America to become a citizen, and then, through political favors and corruption, buy their way into the presidency. It was felt that by making the requirement be that the President be a "natural-born" citizen, the corruption would at least be homegrown and could be better resisted due to the "patria" instinct of Western European societies.

As far as my family goes, the whole resistance to children of UDW gaining citizenship smacks of their inherent racism and deep deep fear of those they do not understand. My family still uses racial slurs, so I'm not throwing around "racism" in the way you might think. They still tell racial jokes and blame all crime and evil in the world on black people and Mexicans. Oh, and they're all Mormon, eighth-generation Mormon, ancestor's-name-on-the-damned-This-Is-the-Place-Monument Mormon.

Now, I am of the opinion that immigration amongst the Americas is fine, and with our colonial heritage ancestors....but I'd be fine with closing off immigration from the rest of the world, save in crucial jobs. I can envision a unified super-continent of North and South America, similar to the European Union, with a unified currency and a strong sense of Americas. I also would like to see an increase is students from abroad coming to the US to study.

[venkman]

Well, I'm with your "racist" relatives. It seems crazy that you can be a citizen simply because your parents illegally sneaked into this country. I don't think that was the intent of the 14th amendment, Supreme Court rulings to the contrary (remember, the SCOTUS didn't recognize an individuals right to keep and bear arms until just recently).

As for an American version of the European Union, that's been the plan for a while. Sounds like you are ok with doing away with the Constitution and U.S. sovereignty. Well, those are just afterthoughts anyway, so no big deal I guess.

And I'm sorry (really trying to be respectful here) but Undocumented Workers is just stupid. Many if not most, have "documents" (fake or stolen, but documents nonetheless) and many don't even work! They are illegal immigrants. Sorry if that's offensive, but that's what they are - immigrants who are here illegally.

[thesaint258]

Alright, here's an argument. The idea behind the Fourteenth Amendment was to fix the problem caused by Dred Scott. Dred Scott said that slaves were not citizens of the United States, so in after the Civil War when the Reconstruction amendments were enacted, the people wanted to correct the Supreme Court's interpretation. Fast forward to Wong Kim Ark which said that a Chinese man, born in the United States to Chinese parents who were ineligible to become naturalized citizens because of the Chinese Exclusion Act, was in fact a citizen of the United States.

These two cases can be distinguished from the situation with illegal aliens. Dred Scott's family had been brought to the country legally, and he, and presumably his parents were born here. Wong Kim Ark's parents were also here legally, having migrated to the United States before the Chinese Exclusion Act. Illegal aliens, however, don't come legally, then they use their children born here and the Fourteenth Amendment to stay here despite their illegal entry. This doesn't seem to have been the intent of the Supreme Court.

Both parties in Dred Scott and Wong Kim Ark were denied citizenship just because of their race. The children of illegal immigrants wouldn't be denied citizenship solely because of their race, but because their parents broke the law to come here and are using their children to stay. One should not be able to benefit by breaking the law, which is what the parents are doing.

The children would be considered illegal just as their parents are. They could still get the benefits other illegal aliens get and be educated, as the decision in Plyler states, but they would be subject to deportation just like their parents are.

[wuapinmon]

Well, I'm with your "racist" relatives. It seems crazy that you can be a citizen simply because your parents illegally sneaked into this country. I don't think that was the intent of the 14th amendment, Supreme Court rulings to the contrary (remember, the SCOTUS didn't recognize an individuals right to keep and bear arms until just recently).

I mention the racism of my relatives to show the mindset that informs their opinion. They don't even like legal non-white immigration, unless they're Church members from somewhere they like. My relatives use 'nigger' without flinching.

As for an American version of the European Union, that's been the plan for a while. Sounds like you are ok with doing away with the Constitution and U.S. sovereignty. Well, those are just afterthoughts anyway, so no big deal I guess.

I'm not advocating repealing the Constituion....indeed, I'd like to welcome more countries to apply for statehood, so that we have a truer USA.

And I'm sorry (really trying to be respectful here) but Undocumented Workers is just stupid. Many if not most, have "documents" (fake or stolen, but documents nonetheless) and many don't even work! They are illegal immigrants. Sorry if that's offensive, but that's what they are - immigrants who are here illegally.

I understand your hatred of the euphemism treadmill; I share it...I do. But, so that my ideas and opinions are not immediately discarded because it might sound like I'm speaking from a position of ignorance, or worse, bigotry, I use the currently politically-correct nomenclature.

[The_Tick]

If your parents aren't US Citizens, then neither are you.

If my parents are US and we were in Canada when I was born, I shouldn't be a Canadian citizen because of where I dropped.

I should be what my parents are. If my parents are illegal in the US, then I would be illegal newborn.

Seems logical to me.

[wuapinmon]

If your parents aren't US Citizens, then neither are you.

If my parents are US and we were in Canada when I was born, I shouldn't be a Canadian citizen because of where I dropped.

I should be what my parents are. If my parents are illegal in the US, then I would be illegal newborn.

Seems logical to me.

I feel like the United States is different from the rest of the world.......to me, there's something sacrosanct about being born in this land.

[All-American]

Ladies and gentlemen, if a law says that you cannot and never will be something and are never to enjoy certain privileges because of who your parents are, that law is wrong.

[FMCoug]

Ladies and gentlemen, if a law says that you cannot and never will be something and are never to enjoy certain privileges because of who your parents are, that law is wrong.

That's really the crux of it isn't it? We (theoretically at least) have no caste system in this country. Anybody can be and do anything if they work hard enough at it. Some start out with more advantages than others, but the road is open to all.